Prince Myshkin

I'm afraid I disagree. The belief system is flawed as it works in the sense that it breaks people down, makes them feel worthless without the god and then explains what they need to do to gain his/her favour. Anything that instructs a person how to live, in areas that don't affect others (so I'm not talking about not instructing a criminal not to commit crimes of course) and that is forced through dogmas with the threat of eternal damnation is certainly a problem. This is what they are taught to believe, and therefore I see it that there is a problem with the belief system.

I would say that it was easier to enforce many years ago, and superstition was rife, but eventually you see past things. If you still do the things that we did in the primitive years then we wouldn't be where we are now. It's time to take off the shackles and move forward as quickly as possible, for our own benefit. I take your point on it being useful in the past in some respect, but I maintain that those people had the potential to do good without religion but didn't have the chance. The fact they did do well using religion works in its favour though I admit. As for the future, however, I would like to think that people are starting to become educated enough not to stick by these things and realise the beauty in the world, alongside the bad things and strive to be good people out of conscience and empathy. You do not need religion for that. Forcing people to do things through fear is not a good strategy anyway. It isn't healthy and it restricts freedom. Therefore I doubt it is part of our DNA. After all, it isn't in everybody's. It was a lack of understanding of the world around them (not their fault of course) which was jumped on by false prophets and manipulators. It will take a long time to happen, and I wouldn't want it to happen overnight as there would be turmoil, but a gradual process of movement away from organised religion would be a positive step, through an education of the world around them and still with the opportunity to be part of religions too (something religion didn't allow when they held all the cards). Then you would hope that with greater awareness they would come to a sane conclusion.

I agree with Henry Winter who said that that is the Respect campaign out the window. How can there be respect when an elbow isn't punished because a referee won't admit to mistakes. There have been other times in the past where referees have said in their match report that they got decisions wrong (for example the referee in charge of last nights prem game got cards rescinded - holt/ibinez).

I still disagree, but I see your point. A big problem, but the abuse of their own members and the lies and control they use shouldn't be underestimated - see my earlier post on their abuse. But in its nature Science will do better at explaining the world around us. Much of it is theory, but whilst it cannot answer everything it at least tries to use reason to find out. As for religion, what can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof. In science they are open to change of perception, providing there is evidence. Of course nothing can explain everything, otherwise we would pretty much in utopia, if such a state exists. Anyone who argues science does doesn't understand the nature of science. I think if you got rid of religion there would be a lot less people who were so servile and paralysed. True they would still be bound by fear from their dictators, but they would not ignore the chance to attempt change and revolution based on the fact that the person in power has a holy connection and is therefore untouchable, and questioning them would lead to them going to hell. This viewpoint is still around today thanks to the cult of personality many leaders have created. And yes, many people are bad so getting rid of religion wouldn't solve all the problems. It would be a start though, and it certainly would be interesting to see people actually expressing themselves for a change.

Yes. As well as the fact that forgiveness should come from the person you have harmed. That does not resolve the matter if it doesn't. There will be times when forgiveness doesn't come. You have to deal with that, not simply invent somebody to burden it with, or worse not even attempt to sort the problem out and simply pray for forgiveness straight off the bat since it is expected of you. This free license of simply being able to repent and gain forgiveness has done damage my mind simply can't comprehend. Goodnight, I'll try to sleep again haha.

He had the audacity to forgive people of their sins through death. Possibly the single worst thing to happen to humans in their entire history.

It's been a while Cping. Good to be back. A religious debate sparks just as I return, good to see :p Good night and sweet dreams. Love to all, even if they don't want it.

He also performed miracles.

I figured it would be better if I didn't just stick to one religion, since people usually moan that I am treating Christianity as the only religion, but all religions have shown sexism, homophobia and an inability to mix with other religions. The evidence is within history and also within their writings. I don't have time to find examples now as I'll be sleeping soon, but if you do a little research I'm sure you'll see.

Holy fuck, I mentioned sexual repression without even hitting on circumcision. In no way do I think this is good for the world on a large scale unless to combat some form of disorder.

I disagree and don't have the time to explain why tonight. It is holding the human race back and has continually stood in the way of scientific discovery. Many basic facts have been denied for religion for as long as possible, and that includes all the major religions. Then, when the facts become too much they simply say God did it. Before they reach that stage it all boils down to superstition and voodoo.

It stems a long way back too. Religion has been used to scare everybody and there's no telling how much trauma and sexual repression are at the hands of religion - and I mean religion, not just the people but the texts. People told their family have gone to hell, whether it was their parents who hadn't been cleansed of their sins before death, or whether it is their unborn child who died in the womb without baptism. People told they would go blind if they masturbated. People told that their love was not natural and were persecuted. And there has always been an alternative to religion, I just feel sorry for those it wasn't available to. An inner morality doesn't need to be taught through religion, and all the negative aspects it brings. There are good and bad people with religion. there are good and bad people without religion. I doubt that the people who are pious and true to the loving side of their religion would become animals without it. In fact, they would be pretty much the same people. Good people. The only major effect it can have, in my opinion, is negative, as they already have the groundings of goodness within them which wasn't put there using shock tactics, fear and persecution.

I recommend the entirety of Duplex.

No.

Find me a mainstream religion that accepts homosexual love, and the practice of sex within that love. I agree with your point, I just can't see any that fit the bill.

I would argue that religions are set up in a way that doesn't accept anything but their own ideals. The only reason they get on so peacefully (and they do, when you bare in mind how it used to be when people took things more literal and Religion had a greater grip) is because people have a greater reason and rational, or they have not mixed with other people from other religions yet.

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Thanks :) He's awesome. Just listened to the entirety of Duplex. It's weird when you find an album from a while ago that could have been perfect to listen to at the time, but totally missed your consciousness.

That pic doesn't work for me :(

Similar to the King Of Limbs style stuff. I'm really in the mood for them now. Just got into them about two months ago but hadn't listened too much. After KOL I've really started feeling them. Their more poppy stuff: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tbp0BQel4M]YouTube - Apparat - Arcadia[/ame] Less accessible but pretty amazing. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI4GfaHGDbA]YouTube - Plus+, Film By Clusta, Music: 'Wooden' by Apparat[/ame] [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj26WAXtRxE]YouTube - APPARAT / Blue cyborg[/ame] CHANGE OF THREAD TITLE. NO LONGER JUST ABOUT APPARAT, BUT WORKS ASSOCIATED WITH HIM TOO

Yup.

Watch it.

:cool:

The new album reminds me of these guys, but better: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tbp0BQel4M]YouTube - Apparat - Arcadia[/ame]

Many don't care if the country they live in is prosperous, providing they are.