http://www.coldplaying.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22371

 

I think I'm now agnostic, for the record. I've been slowly tearing away from my faith since... well... since I started chatting on the internet when I was 13. I was never properly exposed to the theory of evolution until then. I was born in a Christian household, a Christian town (a very, overly religious town), I was baptized, I still attend a Christian school, I still attend a Christian church, but I am very far from being a Christian now.

 

I guess I can thank the internet for exposing me to views other than Christianity. In my community we are completely shielded from other "heathen" beliefs. We were taught a little bit of evolution in school, but we were taught it's weakest arguments and we were eventually told "it's absurd." I was also told to defend my faith by knowing and quoting the Bible. Well, that didn't go very far--what do you do when they don't believe in the Bible?

 

Now, I can't help but think I've been brainwashed all of my life. I understand that Christian adults want their children to be "saved" and go to heaven, but not exposing children to both religion AND science and the theory of evolution is, I believe, intellectual robbery.

 

Also, why is it that our "God given" gift of human reason tends to take over faith? Since faith is essentially, "to believe without reason"...

 

For instance, try applying reason to the story of Adam and Eve. We'd have to assume that, since there was no "death," that Adam and Eve had no hair or fingernails, vegetation did not grow on dead organic material, Adam and Eve just consumed fruits and vegetables without digesting/decomposing them in their digestive systems... if they had any, and that Adam and Eve came from the breath of life and dust... which dust, well, the dust today, is mainly just dead stuff. Or is the story just a complex metaphor which will might not understand today, but understand in the future? Is reason not a valid application to the Bible?

 

Or should we have a healthy balance of both faith and reason, since we will never know, at least in our lifetimes, the origin of life? In a sense, we use faith to believe in both religion or science. You could argue that it takes faith to use the scientific theory for instance. If you have no faith in your hypothesis, why conduct tests at all? Well this whole balancing thing, that's not particularly easy, since the more you tend to depend on faith, the more you lose reason, and vice versa.

 

I think faith and reason could almost be opposites like good and evil, life and death, positive and negative... but if that's the case, which, faith or reason, is the "positive," and which is the "negative?" Like atoms cannot exist without positive and negative charges, could it be that good cannot exist without evil? What would good be if there was no evil? What would evil be without good? Would it just be the norm? Would life be able to exist without death? Would a perfect, "sinless," "good" human be able to survive in the world? Or is a little bit of evil, greed, burning anger, a bit of grit, or selfishness, needed in every person to survive?

 

I was just lobbing a lot of questions like this at my mom, and eventually she was fed up with it--"hoi, I don't know!"--and she left my room.

 

I think many Christians would rather not hear questions or arguments against their faith, because it makes it harder to have faith. But, a weak faith supposedly is exactly what God doesn't want, as stated in the Bible in Revelation:

 

“I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot not cold, I will spit you out of My mouth."

 

For now, I am a bit doubtful of the existence of God, at least the omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient Judeo-Christian God of the Western world. Apparently, I'm lukewarm, and I'll be going to hell. Well, if God keeps good people that are simply skeptics out of heaven, then I don't think I would like to serve him for eternity in heaven.

 

Though, I'd like to end with a quote by Carl Sagan--"absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

*brain explodes*

 

Well I can't believe your town, in the 21st century, does not teach children everything we know about evolution. We need and have the right to know about that and if nobody tells us about it, how are we supposed to move on into the future and learn more and become more intelligent? Because that's what religion does. It tries to stop progress. There is one thing the church wants you to believe and that's it, no more questions, no more trying to figure things out. I don't want to offend anybody here, however, my opinion is that humanity today (well me at least) doesn't have the need for religion. We can explain all those things using science...

 

...though I know a lot of people know that but feel there is some missing link and that is why they are religious. And i may agree with them, I'm not really sure, but I don't think the method of the church is the way to instill that. People should be able to believe whatever they want concerning religion.

I think its a shame that you have lost your faith, but of course, i respect it.

I do not believe that religion is really trying to compete with science in the sense that religion isn't around to explain the world and what happens. It's about having faith, and being a good person. In Judaism, the stories we learn in the Torah, not only explain the laws and the greatness of God, but they teach morals and lessons on how to live a good life and to do good for the world. To me that is what religion is about.

And to answer your question: could life exist without death? I don't know, and i don't think there is a way of knowing. I believe we are here on earth to make the world a better place than we found it. So we must make the world more enjoyable for those who live after us. That is what doing good is.

haha justin if you make two posts we'll have the same exact post count!

woohoo! same count! i'll race you to 5000?

I think its a shame that you have lost your faith, but of course, i respect it.

I do not believe that religion is really trying to compete with science in the sense that religion isn't around to explain the world and what happens. It's about having faith, and being a good person. In Judaism, the stories we learn in the Torah, not only explain the laws and the greatness of God, but they teach morals and lessons on how to live a good life and to do good for the world. To me that is what religion is about.

And to answer your question: could life exist without death? I don't know, and i don't think there is a way of knowing. I believe we are here on earth to make the world a better place than we found it. So we must make the world more enjoyable for those who live after us. That is what doing good is.

 

 

All the bar and bat mitzvahs i've gone to, they have these speeches about being a better person and all so yeah, I've noticed Judaism has a lot of that revolving around it, but all I ever heard of Christianity was the story, how it happened. But I don't know, I might be totally wrong because I haven't read the bible. I'm not totally ignorant, you know, I know the stories and all but I haven't read it.

Well I'm a Christian. I attend church every week, work at a Bible camp in the summer as my job, and am also a leader at my church leading youth group.

(Not going on a power trip here, just kind of saying where I stand).

 

I also went to church and to a Christian school for my whole life up until the end of grade 9. And I can tell you by the end of grade 9 I was ready to give up on this whole "church" and "God" thing. I mean I have basically been force fed it all my life.

 

It wasn't until I got out of my comfort zones, my "bubbles" that I had any idea what faith and this whole God thing was about. I guess gaining knowledge about the Bible does absolutely nothing if you don't understand or try to understand why you are learning it.

 

There are lots of times when serious doubts arise. Its hard, really hard. I mean sometimes you just question everything and wonder why you are doing it. Sometimes there are just so many other views that seem to make more sense to you and you kind of give up on what you once believed. I think we all go through instances like that. Some of us deal with it different ways.

 

I guess the only real way to know why you are doing stuff is through personal experiences. I mean working with kids and stuff all the time just shows me that the whole God thing is real and makes sense. It may not make sense to people reading thing....but there are just so many specific moments where you know without a shadow of a doubt that God is real, and that He is using you.

 

So yeah, don't know if that is helpful or not.

woohoo! same count! i'll race you to 5000?

hmmm...okay.

I do not know all the stories and parts of the Christian bible, but if they are not teaching the importance of being a good person, i think thats a shame, and somewhat defeating the purpose of what i believe religion is.

i'm not sure i can offer much advice on the situation, really, given my own upbringing, but i'm glad that you're learning (or have learned) about the other side of things if the people around you haven't bothered to expose you to them. i think that's beyond irresponsible for a school not to explain both sides in an equal light and let the students mull it over and decide for themselves. frankly, that disgusts me.

 

but i would like to say that if you're losing your faith, it doesnt necessarily mean you're losing ALL faith, at least not permanently. in my opinion, there are WAY more than just two options, or four options or whatever it is. there are an infinitely huge number of gods to believe in, and only a fraction of a percent are contained in books like the bible or the torah or the koran. i grew up in a violently atheist house, with religion being pretty much forbidden. at my school, i encountered a wide selection of world religions (my school is technically episcopalian, but its not associated with the church and is really liberal). weekly chapel services ranged from being traditional muslim or christian or jewish or hindu or sikh or pretty much anything you can imagine. and through my exposure to all those different religions, i realized that i didnt have to pick ONE of those to subscribe to. i picked and chose all sorts of aspects of all of those and combined them to create my own brand of faith that isnt really describable, but isnt shakeable, either.

 

so my point is that just because you're having doubts about a part of your religion, i dont think it has to mean that everything, especially your belief in god, has to be out the window forever. because i think that even though i believe in evolution and in science 100%, there are still some things in the world that are too beautiful and too amazing to not have some sort of otherworldly or magical involvement as well. to me it has nothing to do with how things are created or the reasons behind them and everything to do with the way such things make you feel. i think that feeling, that recognition of the wonder and magnificence, is god (or whatever you choose to call it).

 

(and off the topic, you're quite a good writer, alyssa. that was an amazingly well-written post!!)

There is NO ONE in my town who doesn't go to church. Everyone is a Christan. I have kept my religousness in tact but I am not as obsessive as everybody else. Think about it. A guy who likes Inde/Alternative fitting in with people who like Contemporary Christian ;)

I am a Seventh Day Adventist and we share different views on what happens when you die to most christians, which makes it hard to talk to friends about religon. To me you can never really lose faith. Faith to me, is believe in something you know you have no control over and believing in something you can never really be sure of. Just be believing there is a god, even if you are not commited to that particular god's ideas, is still faith.

I am a Seventh Day Adventist and we share different views on what happens when you die to most christians, which makes it hard to talk to friends about religon. To me you can never really lose faith. Faith to me, is believe in something you know you have no control over and believing in something you can never really be sure of. Just be believing there is a god, even if you are not commited to that particular god's ideas, is still faith.

 

Ah, I was Seventh Day Adventist. I actually live in Loma Linda, the city with the highest concentration of SDA people. :uhoh:

 

But yes--no one has no faith at all. (In response to awhisper21 too :)) I don't necessarily believe in God, as in the one of the Bible, but I have not dismissed the fact there could be a creator, hence being agnostic.

 

Eric (thebestyoucan) told me that (I'm paraphrasing) "there were some Christians that would of told you that the Earth is the center of the universe--I believe it's the same thing with evolution." -- which is completely valid! :)

 

Though I feel kind of trapped because my whole family is SDA, and I really don't know if I'll ever tell my parents, my grandparents, or any of my aunts or uncles that I'm not SDA anymore, let alone Christian. They won't understand. :freak:

 

And thanks! (about being a good writer) I don't usually write so much, but I've been ranting a lot lately--it's strange! :laugh3:

Alyssa, I am agnostic too, Ive been to church plenty of times, and i always felt out of place, mainly because I did not believe it. I have nothing against religion, i say if you have a faith than good, but dont come pounding on my door and force me to believe what you believe. To me there cant be one right religion, i mean maybe there is, but who is to say its christianity, or judism, or buddist..etc. Nobody is right or wrong in my opinion when it comes to having a faith. One thing for sure, is that people should not let religion get in there way of there passive judgements.

I feel that people shouldnt claim the religion they practice right for all mankind( sorry if I offend anyone here). But im agnostic and proud of it, so alyssa dont be ashamed by it, its who you are, and i feel that it is better to be yourself, then to feel you have to believe in a religion you dont fully follow. Nonetheless whatever your reiligion is, be proud of it, especially if you have a strong faith in whoever you believe to be your god(or gods).

 

:)

I'm catholic and well... with lots of doubts about my faith...

 

 

In Judaism, the stories we learn in the Torah, not only explain the laws and the greatness of God, but they teach morals and lessons on how to live a good life and to do good for the world. To me that is what religion is about.

 

I'm agree with Justin..

 

when you read the bible you can't read it literally.. for me the bible try to explain things in a metaphorical way... and try to teach about how to live a good life... but you can't believe in everything that the bible says so literally.. because science is what tries to explain how the physical world works... the bible is about the morals so you can perfectly believe in god and believe in science and evolution theory

I guess second-rate christian apologetics are a hobby of mine... so apologies, but here goes...

 

Would it shock you to know that many evolutionists and even some top evolutionary scientists are christians? That's one neither side likes to teach. I was stunned when I heard it, after years at a christian school having creationism stuffed down my throat. The thing is, it really is all about interpretation. You can believe that God was behind everything and still believe that it changed over time.

 

I don't think faith and reason have to be at war with each other. They are opposites, but they compliment each other, because they deal with two separate realms- the physical world, and the spirit world. Reason at it's best can strenghthen faith, because it makes what you believe make sense, and faith takes over where reason ends, explaining the things that reason can't touch- the big questions in life. Personally, I was raised on C.S. Lewis, who was all about both. His writings are old, and in this age sometimes a little outdated, but he has some amazing things to say. I'd highly recomend the first part of 'Mere Christianity' and 'The Screwtape Letters' as well as his essays 'God in the Dock' for anyone interested in how he thought.

 

And even if you take the bible literally (although I always want people to define their terms when they talk about literally and metaphorically- both mean different things to different people), there are many ways to look at it, and you need both faith and reason to make sense of them and figure out what they mean in the real world, and for you personally.

 

I went through a faith crisis just like yours when I was in my mid-teens, raised in a similar situation with a very shut-in church. I think there's a point anyone raised in a faith-based home reaches when they start thinking for themselves and they have to go through some sort of crisis. It's the point where you figure out who you are and what you really believe for yourself. It's painful, but it's important.

 

In my case, I reached a point where I felt like I had to make a decision- to walk away or slog it through. I guess I just felt that there were too many of God's fingerprints in my life and in this world to walk away from him completely. I eventually left my church because I didn't believe a lot of the things that they were about. I tossed a lot of the things I had been taught out the window because I disagreed and thought they were keeping me from being the sort of Christian I was meant to be. It was really painful, and it meant eventually taking a different path than my parents were. But I couldn't let go of God, even with all my doubts about him. I did all that stuff with a lot of prayer (not meek stuff- I really don't think God minds if people yell at him and question him directly - as long as they keep talking to him. Be angry but sin not, I think it goes) and a lot of bible reading- the most I ever had read, actually. I clung to God like he was a piece of driftwood in a storm-tossed sea.

 

And it took a few years, but the storm did end. I go to a different church now- my whole family does. It's been hard for them in spots, and they've been unaware of a lot of it, but they've come to accept the things I think they could handle, and I think it's strengthened their faith too. Music was a huge one- they used to think anything contemporary was bad, even christian stuff, but that's changed over time, and actually, neuroscience and exposure helped a lot on that point, I think. See, faith and reason at work together. :)

 

But I guess the important thing for me was that I never gave up, even when I had a world-full of doubts. And I think that's what Christianity is about, ultimately. It's not about being perfect, it's about believing that Jesus- God was willing to die to save us. And that saving thing is something a few doubts can never take away.

 

He is at least godlike:D

Oh now were spamming a relilgious thread....

Shows the maturity of some people.

I think many Christians would rather not hear questions or arguments against their faith, because it makes it harder to have faith.

 

 

That's a very broad statement to make. :stunned:

 

 

Anyway...I think that to be a good Christian you have to doubt in order to have incredible faith.

 

If we didn't have doubt, there would be no faith. And if God didn't want us to have a little doubt, he wouldn't have all this stuff out there that makes doubt in people. Maybe if we can take all this information given to us that is against the idea of God and Christianity and still have faith, we are meant to be in Heaven.

 

Does that make any sense at all? xD

huh?:confused:

Before I say anything, I'm not the most perfect Muslim on the planet and I never claim to be. So my opinion may not mean much.

 

Anyway, I agree with Winigwl (sorry, I don't know your name). People focus too much on the things that aren't that necessary. For example, in Islam, there are people who insist on wearing short trousers because apparently that's what Prophet Muhammed did. Obsessing over things like this is wrong imo.

 

Religion tells you how to be loving and compassionate to your fellow humans. As long you're not trying to find the Holy Grail or expecting to save the world then it can be very good for your soul, something we often ignore.

 

Thats my two cents anyway..

I hate religion.

^and why is that?

Honestly you can't just say that....it could be really offensive to some people.