So its perfectly ok for kids and young men to throw firebombs/use mortars etc but not for soldiers to beat them up?

 

In my view if your trying to kill/maim/injure people like those kids were then you really shouldnt be complaining if it backfires.

Just because you're anti-war doesn't mean your stance on a political issue isn't justified.

 

And it doesn't mean you're a terrorist, or a sympathizer WITH terrorists.

 

 

Thanks. :dozey:

Well you anti-war lot, where you when Saddam was gassing the kurds, firing scuds into Israel, invading Kuwait, the war with Iran?

 

Or wasnt it cool then?

So its perfectly ok for kids and young men to throw firebombs/use mortars etc but not for soldiers to beat them up?

 

In my view if your trying to kill/maim/injure people like those kids were then you really shouldnt be complaining if it backfires.

 

if those teens did try or did attack soldiers i really dont feel bad for them getting beat but i do think the soldiers shouldnt do that because we are and should be above that type of thing. if they were insurgents i feel no pain for them.

Well you anti-war lot, where you when Saddam was gassing the kurds, firing scuds into Israel, invading Kuwait, the war with Iran?

 

Or wasnt it cool then?

where were you? where was england?

I was in school and England was where its always been off the coast of mainland Europe.

 

Theres always international outrage when a soldier mis-treats someone but no-one says anything when suicide bombers blow up innocent civilans.

Its always screeching anti-war protesters who're desperate to get on tv that make the most noise.

Both sides have done wrong but its our soldiers who you anti-war lot are treating as villians whereas you treat the terroists and suicide bombers as heros.

 

As far as i know the Allies have never kidnapped anyone and chopped there heads off, they havent deliberatly blown themselves up to kill civilians nor have they flown hijacked jumbo jets into buildings and in the eyes of the anti-war lot we are the evil ones!!! :huh:

I was in school and England was where its always been off the coast of mainland Europe.

 

Theres always international outrage when a soldier mis-treats someone but no-one says anything when suicide bombers blow up innocent civilans.

Its always screeching anti-war protesters who're desperate to get on tv that make the most noise.

Both sides have done wrong but its our soldiers who you anti-war lot are treating as villians whereas you treat the terroists and suicide bombers as heros.

 

As far as i know the Allies have never kidnapped anyone and chopped there heads off, they havent deliberatly blown themselves up to kill civilians nor have they flown hijacked jumbo jets into buildings and in the eyes of the anti-war lot we are the evil ones!!! :huh:

 

you have a valid point...

I have a problem with ALL violence. Like I said in my earlier, ignored comment, not all people who are anti-war are sympathizers with terrorists. I don't sympathize with soldiers who beat people either. I don't sympathize with anyone who shoots a gun for a living, sorry. I'm not going to go out and burn a flag to try and get on TV. Those anti-war protesters you see are a minority. Just like the extreme right wing conservatives who walk around singing "Every Sperm Is Sacred". The majority of Americans don't feel that way, or so I see in my day to day life.

 

But I'm getting off on a tangent. Of course there are people at fault who we are fighting, geniunely bad people. But there are innocents too. No one can deny that the military has done INCREDIBLY horrible things. There's a car bomb once a day in Iraq. We hear about that because it's a terrorist killing innocents. But you know, there could be an innocent bystander shot by mistake (meaning a misunderstanding) by our (or any allies) milititary each day, and that doesn't make the news. It takes something crazy and severe to happen for us to get worked up about it. It takes a video to be taken while some Iraqis are brutally beaten. It takes a torture scandal.

 

 

To go off on another tangent that's fairly unrelated to this topic, I was just thinking about how it takes something DRASTIC to happen for us to notice. It's so pathetic and sad to me. The easiest example I can come up with is the recent situation with the VP. Cheney's always been a secretive guy, never really gave a shit about the American public's welfare and relished in our lack of knowledge. But it takes the guy to shoot someone then not talk about it for 4 (5?) days for us to get worked up about it. The Middle East has always been a hot spot for terrorism. It takes 3,000 people to die for us to care this much.

 

 

Aaaaaaaaaaand I'm done. I don't know where I was going with that, but I feel better getting it off my chest.

I have a problem with ALL violence. Like I said in my earlier, ignored comment, not all people who are anti-war are sympathizers with terrorists. I don't sympathize with soldiers who beat people either. I don't sympathize with anyone who shoots a gun for a living, sorry. I'm not going to go out and burn a flag to try and get on TV. Those anti-war protesters you see are a minority. Just like the extreme right wing conservatives who walk around singing "Every Sperm Is Sacred". The majority of Americans don't feel that way, or so I see in my day to day life.

 

But I'm getting off on a tangent. Of course there are people at fault who we are fighting, geniunely bad people. But there are innocents too. No one can deny that the military has done INCREDIBLY horrible things. There's a car bomb once a day in Iraq. We hear about that because it's a terrorist killing innocents. But you know, there could be an innocent bystander shot by mistake (meaning a misunderstanding) by our (or any allies) milititary each day, and that doesn't make the news. It takes something crazy and severe to happen for us to get worked up about it. It takes a video to be taken while some Iraqis are brutally beaten. It takes a torture scandal.

 

 

To go off on another tangent that's fairly unrelated to this topic, I was just thinking about how it takes something DRASTIC to happen for us to notice. It's so pathetic and sad to me. The easiest example I can come up with is the recent situation with the VP. Cheney's always been a secretive guy, never really gave a shit about the American public's welfare and relished in our lack of knowledge. But it takes the guy to shoot someone then not talk about it for 4 (5?) days for us to get worked up about it. The Middle East has always been a hot spot for terrorism. It takes 3,000 people to die for us to care this much.

 

 

Aaaaaaaaaaand I'm done. I don't know where I was going with that, but I feel better getting it off my chest.

 

the military has not done incredibly horrible things i Iraq...

I was in school and England was where its always been off the coast of mainland Europe.

 

Theres always international outrage when a soldier mis-treats someone but no-one says anything when suicide bombers blow up innocent civilans.

Its always screeching anti-war protesters who're desperate to get on tv that make the most noise.

Both sides have done wrong but its our soldiers who you anti-war lot are treating as villians whereas you treat the terroists and suicide bombers as heros.

 

As far as i know the Allies have never kidnapped anyone and chopped there heads off, they havent deliberatly blown themselves up to kill civilians nor have they flown hijacked jumbo jets into buildings and in the eyes of the anti-war lot we are the evil ones!!! :huh:

 

An action is a reaction.

 

the military has not done incredibly horrible things i Iraq...

 

 

And dare I ask how you know that?

 

 

Don't tell me that it's because the government says they haven't. Hate to break it to ya, but they don't always tell the whole truth....

 

 

We can say that civilian deaths were mistakes, but it's proven that many tactics that we used in our assault on Iraq killed hundreds to thousands of innocent Iraqis.

 

" Coalition forces generally tried to avoid killing Iraqis who weren’t taking part in combat. But the deaths of hundreds of civilians still could have been prevented. " says Kenneth Roth. From http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/12/12/iraq6582.htm

 

To quote the article, "The use of cluster munitions in populated areas caused more civilian casualties than any other factor in the coalition´s conduct of major military operations in March and April, Human Rights Watch said. U.S. and British forces used almost 13,000 cluster munitions, containing nearly 2 million submunitions, that killed or wounded more than 1,000 civilians.

 

Meanwhile, 50 strikes on top Iraqi leaders failed to kill any of the intended targets, but instead killed dozens of civilians, the Human Rights Watch report revealed. The U.S. “decapitation” strategy relied on intercepts of senior Iraqi leaders´ satellite phone calls along with corroborating intelligence that proved inadequate. As a result, the U.S. military could only locate targets within a 100-meter radius – clearly inadequate precision in civilian neighborhoods.

 

“Coalition forces generally tried to avoid killing Iraqis who weren´t taking part in combat,” said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. “But the deaths of hundreds of civilians still could have been prevented.” "

 

You can't overlook these things. Don't give me that bullshit that they haven't done incredibly horrible things. I'm sick of people making an argument and not having anything to back it up. I've done my research, now I suggest you do yours.

 

Some things you might be interested in (but probably not):

 

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

 

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10907.htm

Hate do tell you, but Saddam is responsible for nearly 2 million deaths.

 

million + casulties in the Iraq-Iran war (which he statred), half a million Kurds at least, several thousands kuwaitis and god knows how many tortured Iraqi civilains.

 

You cant overlook that either.

I'm not overlooking that! When did I say I was overlooking that? And I'm not denying he did it either!!!!

 

Jeez!!! :angry:

Hate do tell you, but Saddam is responsible for nearly 2 million deaths.

 

million + casulties in the Iraq-Iran war (which he statred), half a million Kurds at least, several thousands kuwaitis and god knows how many tortured Iraqi civilains.

 

You cant overlook that either.

 

so that justifies the 30,000 civilian deaths?

Well would you rather we sat back and let it happen and not concern ourselves with bringing those responsible to justice????

No. But shocking and aweing them into submission doesn't work either. I believe that we should examine the underlying causes of terrorism and address the issue in that manner. I'm too utopian, but I'm not a war monger either. If we wanted to take down every leader/person with horrible human rights policies, then we'd be up to our noses in wars.

 

 

I don't know how to run a country, I don't know what action I'd take. But obviously what's going on now isn't working. Creating more problems, creating more hatred.

i must say that i totally agree with you an_cat, iraque war is just too sad thing to be talking about.

Thats the problem with you anti war lot, always willing to critize and never offer any fresh ideas.

 

The cause of all problems in the middle-east is Oil and Israel.

 

Arab terrorists want the destructionof Israel and the creation of a Palestine state.

Both sides are as bad each other and both sides have equal claim - reading history books if i was a Palestinan i'd be pissed so no wonder some become terrorists.

 

As for oil the west is addicted to the stuff and the middle-east is full of it. Various local warlords claim this to be a western invasion and how the west is destroying islam to get the oil. They're brainwashing an entire generation, like those teenagers that the west is evil and must be destroyed and Islam is worth dying for.

 

I

Fine. We need to get away from our reliance on oil, period. Ties to Israel need to be cut. America's foreign policies need to be revamped to get away from the "world's watch-dog" approach.

 

 

 

I'm willing to criticize because that is how new ideas come about. If you just sit around passive and take all the shit coming your way, then that doesn't make you a free thinking human being, does it? Stop being so condecending. :dozey: We're never going to "fix" the Middle East, because I don't think that the western world is entitled to do this. These are intelligent people living there and it shouldn't be up to us to make all their decisions. I don't agree with my country's policies towards this area of the world. I don't know how my government can change, that's not my job. But I'm free to criticize, aren't I?

 

I just believe that it's obvious what we're doing is creating more terrorists than it is killing them off. If we ever want to defeat this new world problem, then we should address the underlying causes of it. Children are being raised in impoverished conditions all across the world, but never is it so drastically obvious as in the countries that are now hotbeds for terrorist activity. Countries like Africa, where children have no parents, perhaps lost to AIDS or famine or civil war. They end up in the streets, seeing bodies picked up and tossed onto a carivan in the morning. They have no comprehension of human life or value. Many times terrorist organizations will go to orphanages and recruit these children at such a young age and brainwash them to follow their beliefs.

 

There should be changes made to how the western world reacts and confronts the problem of poverty. Dropping a bag of rice from a helicopter isn't helping the situation. I will be honest, if I were living in horrid conditions and all I saw of America were some men walking down the street in full army get-up with machine guns, or saw pictures of our "extravagent" lifestyles, I'd hate us too. Of course, it's not MY fault I live here. I shouldn't be targeted or hated for that! But these people don't know that, they have grown up to know that we're "evil" and WE'RE to blame for the problems that face them each day.

 

We can't stop the terrorists as they exist now. You can't stop a 20 year old, or a 15 year old, from hating someone. The damage is done. But you can change how they BECOME terrorists, etc. You get what I'm saying? I hope I'm making sense here.

 

 

No. I don't have an exact plan. Neither does my government, as it turns out. Do you? And try not lumping people into generalized categories next time, ok?

Hate do tell you, but Saddam is responsible for nearly 2 million deaths.

 

million + casulties in the Iraq-Iran war (which he statred), half a million Kurds at least, several thousands kuwaitis and god knows how many tortured Iraqi civilains.

 

You cant overlook that either.

 

so that justifies the 30,000 civilian deaths?

 

yeah....that and the fact saddam left in power would have killed far more then this war killed...

No. But shocking and aweing them into submission doesn't work either. I believe that we should examine the underlying causes of terrorism and address the issue in that manner. I'm too utopian, but I'm not a war monger either. If we wanted to take down every leader/person with horrible human rights policies, then we'd be up to our noses in wars.

 

 

I don't know how to run a country, I don't know what action I'd take. But obviously what's going on now isn't working. Creating more problems, creating more hatred.

 

the hatred was already there, its now jsut on the news every night, that is the only difference...

Yes. I agree with you that it was always there, and that it's just been brought to our attention in light of recent events such as 9/11. But we're supposed to be squashing terrorists, smoking them out of their caves. Has that worked? Obviously not because every day there's another car bomb. If not, it has become worse.

Yes. I agree with you that it was always there' date=' and that it's just been brought to our attention in light of recent events such as 9/11. But we're supposed to be squashing terrorists, smoking them out of their caves. Has that worked? Obviously not because every day there's another car bomb. If not, it has become worse.[/quote']

 

this is something that will never go away, there is always going ot be terrorist and car bombs. we can never fully defeat them or smoke them out...we've been killing and stop alot of terrorist but its very hard to stop it because it only takes one dude to set up a bomb.

Sadly, yes. It isn't a perfect world. No, we'll never completely defeat terrorism. But we can reduce it. We can confront the problems that exist in the world (particularly this part of it) that give harbor to terrorist activities. By doing that, we can take small steps to maybe EVENTUALLY defeating it.

Sadly' date=' yes. It isn't a perfect world. No, we'll never completely defeat terrorism. But we can reduce it. We can confront the problems that exist in the world (particularly this part of it) that give harbor to terrorist activities. By doing that, we can take small steps to maybe EVENTUALLY defeating it.[/quote']

 

exactly..except i dont think we'll ever completely defeat terrorism...but we can reduce it.