When they get high brow, or anywhere near complicated, don't you always feel that it becomes people just repeating the arguments of people who know more, or who they think know more?

 

Stuff's so fucking complicated and multi layered. It's all fucking difficult. Half the time the people with all the information are speculating, or interpreting it in a way that reinforces their previously held beliefs. That doesn't make it wrong, of course, but yeah.

This is why I prefer the ancient tribal methods used for settling disputes.

Actually, I have to agree with you Greg; befuzzlers dazzle with pazzaz, to sell themselves mostly, and I wonder what the learned men like Voltaire or Descartes would have said about this?

I feel that way about economics especially so.

When they get high brow, or anywhere near complicated, don't you always feel that it becomes people just repeating the arguments of people who know more, or who they think know more?

 

Yes I've done this, it all depends on the context with what you're arguing about and if you truly understand the argument you're putting across to use it.

Arguments tend to go out of hand and be far away from the main topic. I attended a course that was solely about conflict management and arguments :awesome: Arguments are fun when you know how to handle them and realise how often people like to repeat them because they think that will make you share their opinion. Which is false. <-- it really helps if you plainly mention that to your opposite, and it makes them look rahter dumb :wacky:

Ahh, arguing. Arguing is the #1 thing I am absolutely terrible at. You know how some people have that natural gift of being able to argue, even if they themselves may not know the subject that well? I am so far away from that. About a minute into the argument, I find myself confused and unsure of what to say.. "WELL, WELL... YEAH!!" haha, it's so bad. This is why I tend to just not argue things, because what's the point anyway? It's so unlikely that you're going to change someones point of view, so why even waste the oxygen, or the time? I know within me the way I feel about something, but I can't eloquently put it into words -- I never have been. Truth is, I am ok with that too, because I absolutely can't stand confrontation...it makes me feel weird and uncomfortable.

Yes I've done this, it all depends on the context with what you're arguing about and if you truly understand the argument you're putting across to use it.

 

Very true. It's amazing (and I've done it myself) how once the argument progresses people keep arguing with the same certainty whilst merely regurgitating.

 

Actually, I have to agree with you Greg; befuzzlers dazzle with pazzaz, to sell themselves mostly, and I wonder what the learned men like Voltaire or Descartes would have said about this?

I feel that way about economics especially so.

 

Definitely regarding the economy. So complex.

 

Arguments tend to go out of hand and be far away from the main topic. I attended a course that was solely about conflict management and arguments :awesome: Arguments are fun when you know how to handle them and realise how often people like to repeat them because they think that will make you share their opinion. Which is false. <-- it really helps if you plainly mention that to your opposite, and it makes them look rahter dumb :wacky:

 

Ah yeah, I remember i signed up to an online course on arguments. I should do it sometime. Too busy learning French right now though. I used to be a bad sport when it came to arguing. Twisting things around and bending the truth a little to win an argument. Saying things more forcefully to convince the other person. I've pretty much completely phased that side of me out now though. Can't remember the last time I did it.

 

Ahh, arguing. Arguing is the #1 thing I am absolutely terrible at. You know how some people have that natural gift of being able to argue, even if they themselves may not know the subject that well? I am so far away from that. About a minute into the argument, I find myself confused and unsure of what to say.. "WELL, WELL... YEAH!!" haha, it's so bad. This is why I tend to just not argue things, because what's the point anyway? It's so unlikely that you're going to change someones point of view, so why even waste the oxygen, or the time? I know within me the way I feel about something, but I can't eloquently put it into words -- I never have been. Truth is, I am ok with that too, because I absolutely can't stand confrontation...it makes me feel weird and uncomfortable.

 

Well it's good that you don't use the techniques I used above. Also good that you don't let it get to you that you don't argue too much. You're very right about it being hard to change peoples perceptions.

 

There's a guy i talk to often (i'm sure I mentioned him in another thread recently) and he always comes out with the same things about immigrants etc. And I calmly explain where he is wrong and by the end of the conversation he agrees with me. Then I see him in a couple of months and he's forgotten everything I've said. Sometimes I wonder what the point is. I don't have time to correct him on everything. He really is like a character in a bad book who is there just to get things wrong so that the lead character can correct him and look good. I've heard him saying he thinks africans should have lower age of consent because they have lower life expectancies. That;s the level he's at. He's 27 and he was being deadly serious. Said it should be 12 or something like that. I spent ages explaining mortality rates in childhood leading to a drop in life expectancy, but once you got past four of five years you were likely to live until you were very old. I explained the problems some areas of Africa has with education into contraception and the spread of disease. I explained the problem of overpopulation in some areas. I explained how sex and rape is often used as a weapon to control women and OF COURSE I explained the whole twelve year old not being old enough to give consent.

 

Saw him a month later and he'd forgotten all the points he'd conceded on the topic. 45 minutes it took me.

Ah yeah, I remember i signed up to an online course on arguments. I should do it sometime. Too busy learning French right now though. I used to be a bad sport when it came to arguing. Twisting things around and bending the truth a little to win an argument. Saying things more forcefully to convince the other person. I've pretty much completely phased that side of me out now though. Can't remember the last time I did it.

Ohhh you're learning French? I suck at it :wacko: I stick to my crappy english and a tiny little bit of Russian lol

 

WELL, one advice I can give you when it comes to arguments and annoying people getting louder etc: Just keep calm, don't get louder, and mention everything, EVERYTHING that your opponent uses to distract from the main topic so that he doesn't even get a chance to feel safe about his opinion. Also, what I've learned, is, that a lot of people use killer phrases (is that the right word?), like: "You're too young to have any experience in that!" which are in almost every case, fare from the truth, so answer them either with an ironic answer like "Well aren't we matching then?" (I kinda having difficulties translating the German saying here so yeah^^) or choose a really descriptive answer that shows your opponent why he's wrong with what he said.

im good at it if you let me pause and think about what ill say but people just see that as HAHA YOU HAVE NOTHING TO SAY but then later im like "fuck why didnt i bring up X thing"

I'm currently reading The Art of War, written over 2,000 years ago by a Chinese warrior/philosopher. All about strategy. Some of it (the more metaphorical aspects) can be applied to simple arguments.