Government is simply the exercise of authority by a group of individuals or an individual over an organization or state composed of many individuals. Self-government is in essence just that - individuals governing themselves, either by selecting representatives to average the interests of a group within the larger population, or by direct vote on governing matters.

It is our government, we must reclaim control over that which governs us.

The theft which has taken place is not by the poor, who survive with little say in the current system of governance and occasionally earn enough sympathy to get a crumb here or there, and this theft was not by the working classes, who benefit from public works as workers or sellers of goods, but haven't much power either. No, this theft was by the richest .1%, maybe more accurately the richest .01%, those who proudly consider themselves plutocrats, who have hijacked our democracy by buying off the elections and officials, granted themselves huge tax breaks and shifted the burden onto the rest and into enormous government debts, and then said that everyone else must somehow give up what little improvements they get in their lives because of "budgetary constraints". Now if the billionaires would simply pay their fair share for the society that brings them their great wealth, improve working class wages, and allow the government to spend more to stimulate the economy, while shifting away from war to peace expenditures, both the economy would pick up, and tax revenues would increase as well, allowing for an easing of the debt burden, and with reform, an end to the cronyism and corruption plaguing our nation here.

To Promote the General Welfare, as is written in the US Constitution, means to promote the general well-being of all citizens, so they are healthy and motivated to lead productive lives beneficial to their communities, country, and world. A government of, by, and for We the People must become again just that.

Let's just forget that police infiltration is common in these protests, parrotdies. I mean, they'd never do something questionable on undercover duty, right?

Again, to all the protestors claiming that the "banks" represent "corporate greed" and are the reason why they don't have jobs - have one of you even worked at an investment bank? Do you understand what investment banks do? Do you know how to use the Bloomberg terminal? Because I do - after I graduated from Yale, I worked as an investment banking analyst at Morgan Stanley for 3 years. From my experience, I can tell you that the protestors' claims (ironically enough, 99%) are not the faults of investment banks.

 

I actually use a Bloomberg terminal, for my personal/family account.

 

As much as I despise the Tea Party and what they stand for, at least they had the right idea - if you actually want change, you go through elected legislators.

 

The current crop of legislators will retire in one of two ways - either honorably, having lost an election... or dishonorably, having lost their pulse.

 

Personally, I don't really care which way it happens.

 

It's a race against time - will the State correct its course before its host has had enough? Or will it continue on, and risk an "extrajudicial" solution?

 

EDIT:

 

Occupy Wall Street is just a mess. Still no leaders who can step up and articulate their views.

 

I think this is one of the really fascinating features of these "new" political movements. They're so decentralized and incoherent. I imagine this fact thrills the elites...

 

At one point I thought Julian Assange might be the guy destined to lead a new global political movement, but now I'm not sure.

 

The whole left/right paradigm in this country is so powerful that even progressives like Chuck are arguing in favor of corporate bailouts...

Let's just forget that police infiltration is common in these protests, parrotdies. I mean, they'd never do something questionable on undercover duty, right?

 

Oh, I don't doubt that at all. In fact, I would be shocked if there were no police plants.

 

But I sincerely hope you're not suggesting that these plants are the ones defecating on police cars, or urinating on homeowners' properties, raping female protestors under the guise of "sharing" their tents, singing songs like "F*ck the USA," irritating locals by playing drums well into the night, making anti-semitic remarks and tweets, stealing from small business owners, or throwing rocks/bottles at their colleagues (among other lewd activities I could post).

 

Wow, why am I not surprised these people are unemployed?

Pooping on a cop car is something I've not had the pleasure of doing yet, but I will definitely try it one day.

 

Here's a good quote by the (quite candid) Prime Minister of Luxembourg, Jean-Claude Juncker:

 

"We all know what has to be done; what we don’t know is how to get re-elected once we've done it.”

 

We're brushing up against the edge of democracy's systemic resiliency.

Now THIS is what I'm talking about: http://www.infowars.com/occupy-phoenix-with-ar-15s/

The difference is the Civil Rights protestors didn't throw rocks, bottles, chemicals and other things at the police, even when they were being beaten to the point of death - that was the whole point of the nonviolent resistance (at least until Stokely Carmichael started the whole "Black Power" Black Panther movement). The Civil Rights movement also had strong leaders who were able to articulate their goals and explain why change was urgent - the obvious example is MLK, but also leaders like Diane Nash, Bernard Lafayette, James Bevel, John Lewis, etc. Finally, the Civil Rights movement had public support on their side and as any Poli Sci 101 professor will tell you, you can't have change without the support of the public.

> Here's the problem - what do you do when a minority of protesters decide that violence is the solution, and arrive to a gathering aiming to commit acts of violence against the state apparatus? I saw scenes of non-violent protesters trying to block the violent extremists at the gathering in Oakland, but it's hard to contain them all when some only act violently and show their real intent when they get to the center of it all. And you're right - to win the sympathy of the public at large, one cannot act violently. But in the 60's came the roots of violent resistance groups, and therein is a pattern established which provides examples for some. Consider also, that this is a general assembly of people airing their concerns, frustrations, and grievances for all to see, and no representative of the concerns of all has emerged yet like MLK, but there are some in the independent media who are rallying support for change. Those such as Van Jones, Amy Goodman, Conel West, Noam Chomsky, Chris Hedges, and many others are there, as well as those hikers recently freed from Iran, actors and actresses like Susan Sarandon and Victoria Jackson, filmmaker Michael Moore, they're all there. Perhaps what is missing is the long struggle that produces great leaders, this is in it's nascent stages right now.

Occupy Wall Street is just a mess. Still no leaders who can step up and articulate their views. Even when liberal networks like MSNBC try to help out the protestors, they have a hard time picking someone who doesn't appear ignorant. They're hurting small business owners with their antics (and that's putting it lightly), the very 99% they claim to represent. Public support in cities is drastically going down the longer these protests go on without achieving anything substantial. I flew in to St. Louis the other weekend to visit my friend at Wash U Med School and I was shocked to see the majority of the liberal Wash U community against OWS. Same thing with the small business owners in St. Louis.

> We need the likes of Thomas Paine, Martin Luther King Jr, Mahatma Gandhi, but they came out of a long, patient process of awakening from problems that were long standing. I would suggest Bill Moyers for that role, if he's up to the task. Perhaps Amy Goodman, Chris Hedges, or Van Jones as well - anyone in the media who's seen the true nature of what's been building to this point.

Again, to all the protestors claiming that the "banks" represent "corporate greed" and are the reason why they don't have jobs - have one of you even worked at an investment bank? Do you understand what investment banks do? Do you know how to use the Bloomberg terminal? Because I do - after I graduated from Yale, I worked as an investment banking analyst at Morgan Stanley for 3 years. From my experience, I can tell you that the protestors' claims (ironically enough, 99%) are not the faults of investment banks.

> It seem that when you combine a wealthy ruling class which drops their taxes down low, makes the government borrow enormously to make up the difference, plants insiders into agencies designed to oversee the markets, deregulates the system designed to prevent a mixing of the banking and the investment world, you get what you get - a housing bubble, a near economic collapse, then suddenly, massive unemployment. Government is now constrained, so it cannot stimulate the economy, the panic and upending of the housing market has tosses many out of work. When those motivated primarily by the money game are allowed to run the government, the result is a system that allows unregulated high-risk behaviors to go on on a grand scale. Of course I haven't worked at an investment bank, I haven't used a Bloomberg terminal. And just what then caused the failures in the commercial banking sector?? Everything I've seen of documentaries on the collapse point to many mistakes within the investment banking sector and the derivatives market, I'm not blaming you, just recalling what I have seen through investigative journalism programs, and seeing the aftermath. Ultimately, when the investigative branches are cut short on funding, the rules changed to allow risky activities to happen in the markets, and to allow the types of loans which were created through Wall Street firms, we cannot be blind to what has happened.

Banks aren't the reason why there's no universal health care. Banks aren't the reason why colleges are so expensive. Banks aren't the reason why there are no guaranteed living wages, even if you are unemployed. Banks aren't the reason why marijuana is not legal (wait what? why is this even a "demand" at these protests?)

> Plutocrats are the reason why social goods are denied to the citizens, the very citizens building the hospitals often have no health care, and the cost shifting that has occurred falls on the backs of everyone else who isn't super wealthy. Even the minimum wage hasn't kept up with inflation in the US, all because average citizens have very little real influence in their own government.

And Plutocrats are often the people who control the investment firms, go figure! I need to dig up that Citigroup memo perhaps, and refresh some memory.

As much as I despise the Tea Party and what they stand for, at least they had the right idea - if you actually want change, you go through elected legislators. Start voter registration drives, hold town hall meetings/panel discussions, bring in famous speakers to educate locals, etc. Let the incumbents know their seat is in danger unless they start doing what the people want. Pretty much anything at this point is better than what OWS protestors are actually doing. But hey, if you want to keep pounding away in your little drum circles for hours, thinking it will actually bring change, go right ahead.

> I agree, it's Koch brothers baby, their way to co-opt the masses into fighting against their own interests - what a masterpiece of ingenuity! Yes, though that is one thing they got right - a properly organized movement, though with enough money to bankroll a small army. I see that as the answer as well - organized and to the point, so the voters are aware of what's going on and what solutions are offered, keep the elected officials on their toes so they do the right thing, instead of the usual thing. But I believe mass protests bring people together, empower the powerless into believing in themselves, help create the organization organically from the grass roots up, instead of from the astro-turf down.

And just you remember what was written on that drum head by a certain Thomas Paine, who after all was the ideas man behind the American Revolution.

I'll pound on my drum all day if it wakes people to the call of liberty and justice.;) "THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated."

December 23, 1776

Jay, great suggestion - Julian Assange would be the ideal person to be the leader of this global movement, and perhaps in some ways, he already is.

And this quote of Jean-Claude Juncker, Prime Minister of Luxembourg which you posted is very close to what I heard from our former Governor Jim Doyle at a gathering. How true that is.

"We all know what has to be done; what we don’t know is how to get re-elected once we've done it.”

So I believe when the will of the people gets so strong and clearly focused, the elected officials will do the right thing so they can be re-elected, for doing otherwise will cost them the election.

We managed to get a mining law passed that way, against the powerful interest groups, so it can be done.

Q: Cobalt,

"Let's just forget that police infiltration is common in these protests, parrotdies. I mean, they'd never do something questionable on undercover duty, right?"

__________________

 

Cobalt, I think that's a good observation, and something to seriously consider - when I saw Perkin's "confessions of an economic hitman" I began to see just how far the powerful are willing to go to get their way - hired guns called jackals assassinating any elected officials who wouldn't go along with their demands, hired indirectly by powerful corporate interests - so they know no limits, that's for sure. If all was pure in this world, there would be no need for uprisings.

> Here's the problem - what do you do when a minority of protesters decide that violence is the solution, and arrive to a gathering aiming to commit acts of violence against the state apparatus?

 

That's what happens when you don't have strong leadership, someone to pull in the reins and keep the protestors from doing anything stupid. None of the names you mentioned are charismatic, articulate or influential enough to fill that void. Nor do they have the necessary experience in community organizing. Ironically enough, someone who would be perfect is the Barack Obama of '08, someone with actual community organizing experience and eloquent enough to articulate the movement's goals.

 

> Ultimately, when the investigative branches are cut short on funding, the rules changed to allow risky activities to happen in the markets, and to allow the types of loans which were created through Wall Street firms, we cannot be blind to what has happened.

 

Now I'm not saying Wall Street should be completely absolved of their involvement in the financial crisis of 08. I'm just pointing out that the large majority of problems the protestors keep raising against the bankers (health care, college costs, etc) have nothing to do with these investment banks. And I think it's completely unfair to demonize these bankers for things they were not involved with. Having worked on Wall Street, I know investment banking analysts work a minimum of 90+ hours a week and take maybe 3 days of vacation. These people worked hard to get where they are and they shouldn't be vilified for that.

 

> I see that as the answer as well - organized and to the point, so the voters are aware of what's going on and what solutions are offered, keep the elected officials on their toes so they do the right thing, instead of the usual thing. But I believe mass protests bring people together, empower the powerless into believing in themselves, help create the organization organically from the grass roots up, instead of from the astro-turf down.

 

This has been my point from the very beginning. Let's just assume for one second that OWS is 100% correct on all their claims, that the bankers/1% are really the cause of all the problems. So what? Unlike politicians, bankers are not elected people so at the end of the day, they could care less that some people don't have jobs. However, if you translate that anger to the polls and let the incumbents know of the discontent, then you have some hope for change.

Jay, great suggestion - Julian Assange would be the ideal person to be the leader of this global movement, and perhaps in some ways, he already is.

 

Haha, well I've got mixed feelings about Julian Assange... I'm not 100% sure he's not "controlled opposition". But maybe that's just my own conspiratorial mind at work. Unless someone is explicitly anti-central banks and anti-Legal Tender laws, I'm going to doubt how genuine they are.

 

The Hegelian Dialectic is another thing I pay close attention to, for better or for worse. So when I see people talking about a "global" problem (such as climate change or financial contagion) I always expect to see people proposing a "global" solution - which usually takes sovereignty away from individual countries or local governments.

 

This is where I expect Brussels will try to take the EU. They will propose the ECB have control over all the member-states finances, perhaps temporarily. And we all know how permanent "temporary" government programs are. ;)

It's kinda crazy how differently police and such act about this in different places, in my city the police are actually being kinda supportive and are not really around much, and the security guards of the legislature patrol the park the occupiers are at at night so they feel safe and have given them emergency phone numbers they can use if there's any trouble, and all kinds of stuff.

It's kinda crazy how differently police and such act about this in different places, in my city the police are actually being kinda supportive and are not really around much, and the security guards of the legislature patrol the park the occupiers are at at night so they feel safe and have given them emergency phone numbers they can use if there's any trouble, and all kinds of stuff.

 

> Yes it is, yes it is. I think it's because of top-down orders from Governors and Mayors, pressuring local jurisdictions to follow their orders, and some of those in charge of the local jurisdictions are deciding for themselves what to do, and to allow the protest assemblies to continue. It varies a lot, probably that's why.

Glad the police and legislature patrol are being supportive in your city Crests! That's the spirit we need!!:)

It's gone to that level, has it...

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--for ever." --from Nineteen Eighty-Four. The British author George Orwell"

 

Wow, this is one of the most misleading pictures ever.... as it was taken from a protest in Quebec.... in 2007..... in a protest unrelated to Occupy Wall Street....

 

If you really want to convince people that the police were the ones throwing rocks in Oakland and other places, then at the very least, make sure your post is relevant. It's dishonest to post a picture from a separate event under different conditions and insinuate that must be the case here.

 

And there's no point trying as several OWS protestors admitted to being the ones provoking the police.

Hm, yes, that is misleading Jay, if that is the case. Not to say that there weren't any agent provocateurs there in Oakland or elsewhere, and if it's been used in Quebec, that may have been the trial balloon for other places around the world when protests occur. I wouldn't put it past the powers that be, because if they've gone so far as to assassinate the duly elected leaders of nations if and when those leaders wouldn't comply with the demands of the power elites, it seems quite possible they would use agent provocateurs - they've already shown there is no lower limit on their behavior. Listen to what an enlightened man who once was one has to say about that, if you have a concern: John Perkins Official Web Site

But equally troubling is the growing sentiment that violence is the answer, which when you're trying to win people over, usually doesn't succeed, and so I take issue with these anarchists, for while we all want change, violence is generally not the way to go.

 

John Perkins Recommends that we vote with our money:

 

Q:"Demand that those who use your money-banks, companies, politicians -make socially and environmentally responsible decisions. "

So Occupy Wall Street protestors dressed up as "heroes and villains" for Halloween. Take a look for yourself:

 

 

 

Wow, nice to see all the OWS donations being put to great use. :facepalm:

 

The lack of leadership and direction is becoming more transparent as the days go by. It's just embarrassing.

Oh, I don't doubt that at all. In fact, I would be shocked if there were no police plants.

 

But I sincerely hope you're not suggesting that these plants are the ones defecating on police cars, or urinating on homeowners' properties, raping female protestors under the guise of "sharing" their tents, singing songs like "F*ck the USA," irritating locals by playing drums well into the night, making anti-semitic remarks and tweets, stealing from small business owners, or throwing rocks/bottles at their colleagues (among other lewd activities I could post).

 

Wow, why am I not surprised these people are unemployed?

 

Erm, taking what I said a bit extreme there. But this kinda thing...

 

 

...is what I was talking about. While some may have admitted to provocative activities or whatever it doesn't mean you can paint all of the rest as doing the same thing.

I wasn't misleading anyone, I was just pointing out that police have been caught in the act of doing this sort of thing before.

 

For a Yale graduate, you sure do make a lot of assumptions - for instance, I don't necessarily support every single protestor out there, or their actions.

 

Anyway, here's a funny video of what's going on now in New York:

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxjpW2QqCBE]Occupation Movement = Obama 2008?!? - YouTube[/ame]

For a Yale graduate, you sure do make a lot of assumptions - for instance, I don't necessarily support every single protestor out there, or their actions.

 

You just posted a picture in an Occupy Wall Street thread without giving any context or explanation where it came from. If someone was just browsing through the thread, then they would think your picture is representative of what's going on in Oakland and other cities. Just take a look at chuck kottke's initial response to see how misleading your post was: "It's gone to that level, has it..."

 

But hey, if you just want to attack my academic degree, then go right ahead. Stay classy.

Kudos to the Greeks for potentially having a referendum on whether or not to default on their national debt...

 

Via Bloomberg:

 

Papandreou Adviser Sees Greek Public Backing Bailout Plan: BBC

 

So he's assuming the Greek public will vote for perpetual austerity and higher taxes, more debt, etc etc etc.

 

Apparently the markets think they're not that dumb, and the DOW plunged 300 points today (after a 200 point fall yesterday).

 

The Europeans (and Americans) will learn the hard way that you can't save a debt-based monetary system from caving in on itself.

But hey, if you just want to attack my academic degree, then go right ahead. Stay classy.

 

Well you're the one who put it out there. That's like painting your house pink and being offended when someone comments on it. How many lawyers, traders, politicians, and bureaucrats does Yale crank out every year?

Yale cranked out George Bush, what else is there to say! :laugh3: But to be fair, they also cranked out John Kerry, so they're batting .500

But now Harvard, that's another story. Thurston Howell III went to Harvard. Howell would call an inferior a "Yale Man". But hey, this is a guy worth only millions after the market crash, and he owned a coconut plantation..:P

Can't we occupy Wall Street and Have a Little Fun Too??!:joker:

All the world's a stage, it's time for the citizens to become their own superheros!!:elephant:

lol Chuck, you're an entertaining man with dangerous ideas... but entertaining nonetheless.

Dangerous ideas, like freedom, liberty, and justice for all? A true democracy requires that it keep up with the times.

Richard Wolff alludes to the same problem - when the money rolled in, the high rollers invested it into politics & political ads, and the workers- overworked, underpaid, having too much to handle - became disinterested in politics, starting in the 70's. Hence, guess where the policies went.

I believe we must make the commons common to all again, make the election process fair, or else we will slide even further off the deep end, and when that happens, who knows what may happen.

So instead, we have ample opportunity for reform and accountability, checks and balances, equal access to the broadcasting system, equal time on it, and without cost, as a return for licensee privileges taken from the commons. All candidates, including Ron Paul, all having equal access to disseminate their messages at no cost to themselves or to others, because we've turned over the use of certain frequencies to broadcasters, they owe it back to the public. Buying the spectrum is as absurd as buying the right to possess all the water, or to buy the air; Bolivians didn't put up with it, and neither should we.

Take the big money out of politics, declare that money isn't free speech, corporations are not people, amend the constitution so it's plain for all to see. Make it a clear right to propose and vote on legislation by direct popular vote, so yet another check can be put upon power, and allow for direct democracy.

Be bold, improve Democracy.

As Jefferson Said, "I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."