"By 1951, six years after the war and at the effective end of the Marshall Plan, national incomes per capita were more than 10 percent above pre-war levels. "

 

The wealth in Europe was from American economic plans and money....We constructed the Economies of western Europe after ww2 and made it better then before ww2....yet were the bad guys....

 

"The Marshall Plan has also long been seen as one of the first elements of European integration, as it erased tariff trade barriers and set up institutions to coordinate the economy on a continental level. An intended consequence was the systematic adoption of American managerial techniques.

 

European integration is the process of political, legal, economic (and in some cases social and cultural) integration of European states, including some states that are partly in Europe. In the present day, European Integration is primarily achieved through the European Union and the Council of Europe."

 

The Marshal plan and other plans, unified Western Europe, promoted better trade, political unity and basically almost everything the EU is today.

 

*I just looked up the number and I was off, it was Billions not trillions*

You guys never wanted to help us in the war anyway, as you will still getting over your gambling handover from 1929...

 

Face it the balance of world power is slipping away from your imperalistic leaders... all that is happening is the path of correction.. your country has ripped of the West Indies for the past 100 years more than ever...

 

 

 

Your Regime is crumbling to a rapid end, and your countires reactions seem to mirror what hitlers was like torwards the end of the war in Europe in the 1940´s when he was losing...

 

Its the End game now...

Damn straight we didn't....we helped clean up your mess after the first world war....we wanted to be by ourselves but Europe couldn't act grown up enough and had to get America to save her...

 

Funny, after ww2, america MADE EUROPE drop its imperalism around the world....funny how you attack "american imperalism" when we had to force your continent to stop imperialism in Middle East, Africa and Asia...

 

Ever wonder why Europe lost most's it colonies after ww2? LEARN HISTORY.

 

End game? Europe is making almost the same mistakes...facism on the rise, and ignoring new enemies... end game for Europe, but of course America will bail you out of your mistakes for the 100th time in the last 100 years....costing us billions of dollars and thousands of lives.

 

You owe your economy and industry and security to america.....We gave your people billions, lost hundreds of thousands of lives and rebuild your nations after you messed up. The modern good relationship of western Europe was AMERICAN POLICY after ww2...

 

Have you ever had a history class or do you just make up your own history?

 

Europe loves to make HUGE messes and complain AFTER america cleans them up...next time Europe needs a time out and America should say to hell with you and not give any money or rebuild your sorry countries.

Damn straight we didn't....we helped clean up your mess after the first world war....we wanted to be by ourselves but Europe couldn't act grown up enough and had to get America to save her...

 

Funny, after ww2, america MADE EUROPE drop its imperalism around the world....funny how you attack "american imperalism" when we had to force your continent to stop imperialism in Middle East, Africa and Asia...

 

Ever wonder why Europe lost most's it colonies after ww2? LEARN HISTORY.

 

End game? Europe is making almost the same mistakes...facism on the rise, and ignoring new enemies... end game for Europe, but of course America will bail you out of your mistakes for the 100th time in the last 100 years....costing us billions of dollars and thousands of lives.

 

 

We dont want you´re help... we will never need it as we will never have such a problem to deal with...

 

You guys will be asking us for Handouts...

I only found out the other day we have a better standard of living in Western Europe than some of your peasents that live other there...

 

Lets listen to Coldplay

 

Good performance

 

We dont want you´re help... we will never need it as we will never have such a problem to deal with...

 

You guys will be asking us for Handouts...

I only found out the other day we have a better standard of living in Western Europe than some of your peasents that live other there...

 

Lets listen to Coldplay

 

Good performance

 

\

 

Not after we rebuilt your countries and won your war! but before all of that, you begged for our help. Funny how when you have succuess BECAUSE of american policy, you take responsibility and tell us to leave, then we have to come back later to fix a mess you ask us to. Now that we have caused Europe to be more wealthy and stable then before ww1, you don't want our help and we shouldn't give it, just asking you acknowledge what we did.

 

And what do we get for helping Europe rebuild, horrible policies that are basically anti american by the EU....Talk about biting the hand that fed you.

 

 

This is my whole bottom line, our idiotic government is the reason you guys have prosperity. You blew yourself back to the stone age, but we sent you into the future and made modern Europe.

 

But western Europe won't hold together for too much longer, you never can, never have.

hahahaha im by no means a war monger or a flag waver. Im patriotic, and i plan to serve my country as an officer in the US Navy. HOWEVER, denying the fact that the US's involvement in both world wars was not the decisive factor that lead to defeat for the Triple Alliance and the Axis powers is just downright rediculous. without the Industry of the United States, The Allies would have run bone dry and would have been forced to make peace or worse in both wars....And for people who think we didnt have any effect on WWI..."we came over when the allies had already won" think about this.....Russia had just been run out of the war, AKA the western and southern fronts were all Germany had to worry about, AND Austria had just aquired the resource rich Ukraine from Russia's new government, so they were now geared up and ready to go to make the final push for victory against the French and British.....JUST when we make it over with 250,000 troops to tip the scale and force surrender.....but NO you guys couldnt take victory with a grain of salt, you had to go and give Woodrow Wilson the fat finger by forcing the War Guilt Clause and Treaty of Versailles on Germany and OPEN THE DOOR for fascism......not feeling so proud now are you? well if that wasnt enough, GB was on LIFE SUPPORT with the Lend-Lease program from the United States....without the tons of supplies, money, and vehicles provided by the United States, there is no way England would have made it out of 1941. Granted they did all the fighting in the beginning, but they fought with our money in their pockets, our bullets in their rifles, and our rations in their bellies.

 

denying anything less is just a blatant disreguard of the historical facts.

My problem is not with bart's personality, but if he wants to debate he needs to have a common understanding of history. I don't know if he makes it up or is listening to what someone told him, but it's scary to think how little he knows about history and the world. I thought only redneck's in america were this bad...

We are steering away from the issue here...

What is the clear and present Danger

 

US Corpation lead Policys doomed for failure...

 

Please watch this film, as these will be the dire consquences...

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2023790698427111488&q=Threads&total=3258&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Ignorance at it's finest...

 

btw whats with the video on nuclear war....?

Ignorance at it's finest...

 

We are not talking about the past here.. you are talking about silliy decisons currently being undertaken...

 

History is in the past...

 

Its the new history we have to write...

History is always affecting the future and current politics....

 

Best way to predict the future is by the past....

 

again ignorance at it's finest.

 

Hell most problems stem from a lack of understanding of history....

You can't understand politics, war and the world unless you understand the history behind it....common knowledge.

Ignorance at it's finest...

 

btw whats with the video on nuclear war....?

 

 

Just to show the consquences of the imprealistic corprates approcah

You can't understand politics, war and the world unless you understand the history behind it....common knowledge.

 

Hmmmmmmm pity the US never read the History of Iraq before they went in there... they would have save 3000 + lives...

 

They dont want your countries currupt idealisilm running it

Corrupt idealism that SAVED your country...aint history a bitch? The policies and ideas you hate so much, are the very same that saved your nation....don't be bitter....haha

Hmmmmmmm pity the US never read the History of Iraq before they went in there... they would have save 3000 + lives...

 

They dont want your countries currupt idealisilm running it

 

 

its actually far more than 3000.....4000 americans and tens of thousands of Iraqis. I agree, the ignorance of the US was uncanny in the lead up to the invasion. Dick Cheney himself, while secretary of defense for George H W Bush said we did not invade Iraq after pushing them out of Kuwait because it would have been a "quagmire"......so that was pretty stupid.

 

 

But to say that they dont want our countries corrupt idealism ruining it.......haha ruining it? pretty sure its more like the corrupt iraqi government in power that would rather take part in religious cleansing than police their country. These people support guys like Sadr.....if thats not "corrupt idealism" i dont know what is.

This whole idea about expanding Nato and Bush and co are pushing is that....

 

 

The US, UK, and Isreal have a plan, to control all the worlds oil and gas supplies.. they are all now very worried that the Balance of power and wealth will be shifted.. and they wont be as big players in the world as they currently are at the moment.

 

Its all part of a greater plan, the trouble is here...the above mentioned are wrong in what they are doing and as I have said before futures history will show that..

Every nation has a plan to control the world...

 

Why is it moral for EU and European nations to colonize the world once more...you're nation along with many others are trying....

 

80% of the world at one point was under the brutal hands of European's, millions died, millions were abused and tortured and millions sold into slavery. Does European's doing it make it more moral?

I never said that.. I really do wish the world would work with each other when it comes to sorting out issues..

 

Everyone has their point, I feel in some situations some will be better of sorting it out than others.

 

I still think, and you wont change my mind the direction the Gerneral way the US is going is not good for the World...

 

I am sure you are intellegent enough to digest enough on this thread, that the Nato expansion into Georgia and Ukriane is a bad idea.

 

Its a good job on this one we do have a veto over here to Block such a move.

I never said that.. I really do wish the world would work with each other when it comes to sorting out issues..

 

Everyone has their point, I feel in some situations some will be better of sorting it out than others.

 

I still think, and you wont change my mind the direction the Gerneral way the US is going is not good for the World...

 

I am sure you are intellegent enough to digest enough on this thread, that the Nato expansion into Georgia and Ukriane is a bad idea.

 

Its a good job on this one we do have a veto over here to Block such a move.

 

Not a bad idea at all....very bad for Russia and the future soviet union. But the EU will pay for their stupidity in the coming years along with America.

First, I would like to set some of the record strait on history. Yes, history affects the future, and countries have long memories. But it is constructive to be fully truthful about that history, lest we loose ourselves in bombastic rhetoric. The European powers were vying for world domination via their colonialism (the US got a late start at colonizing), and WWI was perhaps as much an economic war as it was a war to counter some aggression, although German militarism pushed Europe into the war more than the rest after the assassination of the Archduke of Austria (Franz Ferdinand- how a name comes back!). But, after the war, the European powers (mainly France and Great Britain) insisted Germany pay the full war costs, after Germany was exhausted from the fight. Add to that, Germany had lost it's colonial possessions (less income), AND because of poorly regulated US investments in the stock market "bubble" of the 20's, the crash started fist in Germany in the mid 20's. So sever was the depression in Germany, that the fringe parties rose to the top, and hence Adolf Hitler and German Fascism. Who's fault?? Well, looks like all the powerful nations at the time had a hand in the failures that led to European Fascism - the US, France, Germany, Great Britain... So, I would have to say it's more a failure of modern society to see our interconnectedness, and how decisions affect the whole.

As for the present situation, consider how to defuse the matter, and have firm but reasonable expectations with regards to all parties. I know, via a friend, of people in Russia who are feeling the return of the power consolidation there, and it's got them on edge. But posing a threat can only strengthen the xenophobic tendencies of Russian reactionaries. Poisoning the Ukrainian president and other misdeeds by some powerful individuals in Russia is a very serious matter, so I see the need to bolster security help for the Ukraine and Georgia if they so desire, but keeping out military hardware would lessen the arguments of the hard-liners.

I too feel this is primarily a European matter, but it is also a global issue where the US has a stake in the outcome as well. Ironically, NATO was begun to contain German aggression in Europe, and quickly had changed course during the Soviet era! Now, it might be better to see NATO's purpose as containing threats from states that behave dangerously and act outside the bounds of accepted international law. Having a place for new members, but limiting the placement of weapons and weapon systems should limit the tensions created, and in time a more stable Russia should be welcomed among the NATO nations.

As far as containing American aggression, I think that will solve itself. We're not far from disembarking from Iraq, provided we can get Russian help in convincing Iran to help stabilize the Shea's they have some influence over. In return, less pressure militarily on Russia's front door would help ease the tensions.

First, I would like to set some of the record strait on history. Yes, history affects the future, and countries have long memories.

But it is constructive to be fully truthful about that history, lest we loose ourselves in bombastic rhetoric.

 

The European powers were vying for world domination via their colonialism (the US got a late start at colonizing), and WWI was perhaps as much an economic war as it was a war to counter some aggression, although German militarism pushed Europe into the war more than the rest after the assassination of the Archduke of Austria (Franz Ferdinand- how a name comes back!).

 

But, after the war, the European powers (mainly France and Great Britain) insisted Germany pay the full war costs, after Germany was exhausted from the fight.

 

Add to that, Germany had lost it's colonial possessions (less income), AND because of poorly regulated US investments in the stock market "bubble" of the 20's, the crash started fist in Germany in the mid 20's. So sever was the depression in Germany, that the fringe parties rose to the top, and hence Adolf Hitler and German Fascism. Who's fault??

 

Well, looks like all the powerful nations at the time had a hand in the failures that led to European Fascism - the US, France, Germany, Great Britain... So, I would have to say it's more a failure of modern society to see our interconnectedness, and how decisions affect the whole.

 

As for the present situation, consider how to defuse the matter, and have firm but reasonable expectations with regards to all parties. I know, via a friend, of people in Russia who are feeling the return of the power consolidation there, and it's got them on edge. But posing a threat can only strengthen the xenophobic tendencies of Russian reactionaries.

 

Poisoning the Ukrainian president and other misdeeds by some powerful individuals in Russia is a very serious matter, so I see the need to bolster security help for the Ukraine and Georgia if they so desire, but keeping out military hardware would lessen the arguments of the hard-liners.

 

I too feel this is primarily a European matter, but it is also a global issue where the US has a stake in the outcome as well. Ironically, NATO was begun to contain German aggression in Europe, and quickly had changed course during the Soviet era! Now, it might be better to see NATO's purpose as containing threats from states that behave dangerously and act outside the bounds of accepted international law.

 

Having a place for new members, but limiting the placement of weapons and weapon systems should limit the tensions created, and in time a more stable Russia should be welcomed among the NATO nations.

 

As far as containing American aggression, I think that will solve itself. We're not far from disembarking from Iraq, provided we can get Russian help in convincing Iran to help stabilize the Shea's they have some influence over. In return, less pressure militarily on Russia's front door would help ease the tensions.

 

 

Good point...

The US though need to stay out of the whole NATO discussion... and let Europe deal with the issue.

 

I feel then we will be able to resolve the matter... !

 

This would then help the US make progress in requesting some help from the Russians with Iran a lot easier.

 

... and in time, why not now invite Russia to the club now ?

(its not a question just expression... )

 

Also its about time the whole of the UN was sorted out, there is a need of change there and a whole review how UN Forces Operate, its a pity we cant have a Force involving every nation, but when something needs to be sorted out, they take no shit take no sides, but will be ruthless in order to sort out the greater goal peace. Will be sent into combat.

Russia does not want to be a part of the club, never have and they have shown to this day they don't want to be.

Gotcha. ;)invite Russia to the club..:laugh3: Oh, the humanity of it! I must go consult Putin's contacts here.:P