Nato denies Georgia and Ukraine

[bart]

Nato has confirmed it will not yet offer membership to Georgia or Ukraine after the 26-member alliance was split amid strong objections from Russia.

 

Moscow said Nato's promise that the ex-Soviet republics would join one day was a "huge strategic mistake".

 

At a summit in Romania, Macedonia was also denied Nato entry but Albania and Croatia were given the green light.

 

US and Czech officials agreed to base a missile defence radar on Czech soil, a plan that has also angered Russia.

 

And President Nicolas Sarkozy indicated France would return next year to the Nato military command it left in 1966 in protest at the dominance of US commanders.

 

He also said hundreds of extra French troops would be deployed to Afghanistan, easing fears of a crisis within the Western coalition there.

 

'Not happy'

 

The announcements came after a night of diplomatic wrangling over new members which poisoned the summit atmosphere, says the BBC's Jonathan Marcus in Bucharest.

 

US President George W Bush had called for Georgia and Ukraine to be allowed to join.

 

 

George W Bush

 

Row as Nato door creaks open

Greek veto for Macedonia bid

Georgia eyes Iraq route

 

But the move was opposed by Germany and France, amid concerns voiced by Russia over Nato's eastward expansion.

 

Nato Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer told a news conference Georgia and Ukraine would become members eventually.

 

The alliance decided not to offer Ukraine and Georgia a membership action plan - a gateway to membership - but agreed on Thursday to review this in December.

 

Georgian diplomats said they were "not happy" with the delay but welcomed the promise of eventual membership.

 

Macedonian officials said their rejection was a "huge disappointment" that would undermine stability in the Balkans.

 

The US had also called for Macedonia to join but this was strongly opposed by Greece, which has a northern province that is also called Macedonia.

 

It argued that the former Yugoslav republic's insistence on being known as Macedonia implied a territorial claim.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7328276.stm

-------------------------------

 

 

My two cents.....

 

I don´t think this is a good idea... with the former USSR countries joining Nato.. and I can wholeheartedly understand why the Russians are kicking off.

[Darlene_Ihnfsa]

:worried:

[Matter-Eater Lad]

Europe keeps digging it's own grave, right along with America....China, Russia and India are happy.

 

Russia is setting up once more to Run American and European politics with its growing economy and military. This was a prime chance fore Europe to sway power back into their direction by aligning with two very close nations to the Soviet Union....I mean Russia. In the future, NATO will be wishing they joined. I actaully have a paper due about this type of situation in Europe for my western civ class. This is one of a thousand chances Europe had to stop Russia from becoming too powerful, but I guess Europe likes the Soviet Union?

 

When will the Western European nations realize, its them VS a very strong and growing Russia, without other Eastern nations in NATO, the western countries have little chance. Europe keeps making the same mistakes over and over again, at least for the most part America just makes a ton of new ones.

[bart]

If Russia gave Cuba other nations close to the US a weapons upgrade, or started to expand which I now believe disbanded Warsaw Pact, I think they would be concerned as well…

 

Despite what you think, Russia and the Former USSR realised around the late 80´s that a cold war/nuclear war was not the way forward.

May I go to point out USSR were the 1st to offer the west the Olive branch that brought a end to the Cold war. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War_%281985-1991%29

 

"Bush and CO" who been clearly the first to try and start this up again. Your fears are very ill founded… I don't think Russia has the intentions to freeze itself out of what will be a booming economy working closely with the rest of the world especially Europe in the next 30 - 40 years.

I would like to say your concerns about Russia have no basis whatsoever.

 

All that the expansion of NATO will do is make Russia feel possibly intimated, concerned , please take the chance of the very carefully considered blocking of the expansion by the Germans and the French on this one…

 

Also at this moment in time the Russians Language on the matter despite what most of us see as a act of provocation has been very well managed. However let this continue, yet again in less than 10 years time we would be living in fear of the Mushroom cloud…

 

Thankfully the Europeans have a say in this one, or it could be late already..

[Matter-Eater Lad]

I said nothing of nuclear war, in fact that is the opposite of what Russia wants and would never resort to that. They hold the best hands in the deck, why destroy the whole deck with a nuke?

 

You don't realize the now Russian government is very different from the collapsing Soviet one, they learned what works and what does not. I'm simply pointing out the mistakes Europe has made many in regards to Russia over the last 200-300 years.

 

 

This has nothing to do with nukes, but politics. Russia is setting up to control a large portion of Europe's fuel and politics. At the same time, its reverting back to soviet type tactics and government. The killed journalist would tell you but the Kremlin silenced them

 

 

The problem is the same as its been for a 100 years and once more the exact same steps are being taken by the West WHILE Russia learned from its mistakes and is fixing them.

[bart]

Ok I will accept that !!

[Matter-Eater Lad]

My conerns about russia are based on its current policies and leaders.

 

KILLING journalist in mass amounts is a horrible sign of things to come. Along with elections being rigged and the people running Being chosen by Putin.

 

Columnist William Safire detailed what happened: "By taking over the mass media and seizing the political opposition's source of funds, Vladimir Putin and KGB cohort have brought back one-party rule to Russia."

 

My whole point is, the soviet hard-liners are back in power, and the age of peaceful moderate Russia is over. Have you not been reading about what is going on in the political system in Russia?

 

Oh and Russia is very open about how anti-west it is, and that plus their growing economy and government is a threat in itself.

[bart]

I will have to look further into that one before making further comment. However up to a point, I do agree Russia will be far more powerful in 30-40 years time, due to its wealth of natural resources..

however expanding NATO is not the solution

[Matter-Eater Lad]

It's the only option. Get the states closest to Russia away or they will be forced to fall into line WITH russia, only making Russia more powreful, which would lead back to the USSR and a stand off between the west and east in Europe. We have almost no leverage against Russia, while they keep getting more and more on America and Europe.

 

Them not joing NATO is only making Russia a lot more stronger and more unified, while dividing the west more.

[bart]

I wish I had more time, to discuss this further.. this is a concern of mine at the moment, and I would like to present an alternative workable solution.

[bart]

I have looked a little further into this on a recent trip to the UK, and I heard that 75 % of the people in Ulkriane dont want Nato...

 

They understand the Russians concerns, also they will need fuel of them, and don´t wish to jeorpodise the supply..

[Matter-Eater Lad]

Maybe, but show some proof of 75% don't want it.

[bart]

I heard it on the Radio

 

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=4556&edition=1&ttl=20080412041936

 

However I cant pin point the report however I am sure if you read this, you will see where I am coming from !

[bart]

One quote I agree with

 

"Could we please postpone these talks to next year when the current US president can't cause any more damage!"

[Matter-Eater Lad]

Thats the problem, the change in president won't be a change in policy because the president really doesn't make policy. I dont think most countries understand this.

[Matter-Eater Lad]

I heard it on the Radio

 

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=4556&edition=1&ttl=20080412041936

 

However I cant pin point the report however I am sure if you read this, you will see where I am coming from !

 

Not only have I read it, I also posted a comment or atleast tried, I never did check if it posted. But that is a very small amount of people, from all over the world. I'm talking about polls just from those countries and until I see any hard proof, i won't believe. Not saying it's not possible, I'm just saying I don't believe numbers like that without proof. And the bbc forum does not really count as such.

[bart]

The moderators will more than likley aprove your comment in a few hours.. !

 

I will not lie over something like that, or sex up the truth.

 

It will be on the BBC Radio 5 live Archive for a report on April 9th Around 4AM BST. You will have to select a show called " Up all night "

 

And it will the report about the peoples feelings in UKRaine is around 3 hours into the show.. its on for 15 minutes or half hour !

[Matter-Eater Lad]

I believe you, I just want to see concrete evidence before I believe something. I'm not saying you're wrong or anything.

[chuck kottke]

Careful where you stand..

 

It's a bit complicated. The Russian people have a relatively prosperous growing middle class, but lots of troubles with lost pensions, displaced workers, and the like. Discontent builds support for the "old ways" and contentment builds support for "new ways"; On the whole, I think the Russian people have adopted modern market reforms thoroughly, and there is overall greater prosperity than there had been, but they are concerned that their government will slip back further, so they are uncertain about their future. Putin - there's a mystery to me! He's a chess player for sure. Old KGB style rule and power consolidation seem to be his mark, but perhaps he's wise enough not to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. I'm saddened to hear of the press assassinations - awful!

..But a growing middle class will only tolerate so much, before reform moves ahead (I hope!).

As far as NATO expansion and Ukraine, I wonder this: (1) How reformed is the government of Ukraine? (2) with regards to Russia: Perhaps a better route would be to use international standards of behavior to put pressure on Russia to reform their policies, much as had been done with Libya? Ultimately, containment seems wiser but slower - and giving Russia's old guard an argument to become "closed" again because of a perceived threat from NATO expansion would not be wise. This is what the 'conservatives' in Russia want - a reason to return to a closed society against the outside world, as Sparta was to the rest of Greece. Lessen the pressures, and as ironic as it may seem, the conservative forces in Russia will loose power. Militarily, it's very unlikely either side will act either way, as it's not the world it was 50 or 60 years ago.. Bosses like money, so long as they get a big piece of the pie - going back wouldn't probably be their choice either. For example, western firms and market reforms help to plug the leaks in their pipelines, and double profits.

..and I see down the road more of a problem with the Chinese government's policies towards freedom and basic human rights - and they seem to be more interested in taking countries over for good - somewhat unlike Russia with their former republics. So, the open societies of the world might need the aid of Russia in containing the current Chinese government's expansionistic tendencies. Or perhaps the Chinese will move along faster towards respecting neighboring states and human rights, and the reverse could be true as well.

But I'm not holding my breath on that one!

I would think a wise compromise would be to allow Ukraine to cooperate with NATO, but not expand NATO into Ukraine, thus preventing the Russian conservatives/reactionaries tendency to clamor for old-style power consolidation and a bunker mentality. Hence, no "Cuban missile crisis" in Russia's back yard. Then, the process of international standards can slowly affect change, along with the Russian people's grassroots efforts towards change, and economic progress will also foster a more egalitarian society.

I've seen what "rolling the dice" with rash moves does do - usually, with catastrophic consequences, as we see with Iraq. Encouragement and firm clear limits by international standards will do us all a lot more than fast moves to put our combined military might up against Russia's borders.

Bart, it sounds like you're on top of this topic, so keep us informed!

[bart]

I am unsure if this is fact or not, but it has been said by a few the Russians have asked a few times if they can join the club, but there requests thus far have been declined.

 

it may bee a good idea if the US came out of Nato

I think we are quite capable of handiling our own affairs without Amerincan Corporations telling us what to do.

 

We also have a different mind set when it comes to sorting out world issues, and in a lot of countiries in Europe we have a desire to sometimes listen to what the Russians and the Chinise might have to say on the matter. Overall I think there would be a greater Unity without the US being a part of the club.

[Matter-Eater Lad]

There is Unity in Europe BECAUSE of America and NATO...

 

And America wouldn't need to be messing with European affairs if you didnt start the two BIGGEST world wars ever.....

 

Our policy after ww2 up until now has been promote unity in Europe...hell we basically started the EU...we spent trillions on what is now modern day Europe.

 

I personally think we should pull out and leave you guys be, let you guys blow the shit out of your own nations in the next major war, and keep our money in America....But Europe has been a bastard by not being thankful for all the shit America did for it after ww2 until now

 

You can thank your economies and unity on American policy and trillions of US dollars....

 

For some dumb ass reason my nation still wants to waste billions on Europe.....pull out of NATO, and let the countries spend billions more money on their own defence and next time they get into trouble, say to hell with you you ungrateful bastard.

[bart]

Maybe, but show some proof of 75% don't want it.

 

 

 

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080408/104105506.html

MOSCOW, April 8 (RIA Novosti) - Russia will do everything possible to prevent its neighbors, Ukraine and Georgia, being admitted to NATO, the Russian foreign minister said on Tuesday.

 

"We will do everything possible to prevent the accession of Ukraine and Georgia to NATO and to avoid the possible worsening of relations with the alliance, its leading member states and our neighbors," Sergei Lavrov said in an interview with the Moscow-based Ekho Moskvy radio.

 

Lavrov said Ukraine's and Georgia's possible admission is "the key irritant threatening to turn relations into a real problem with those NATO countries trying to force through this decision."

 

At a summit in Bucharest on Thursday, NATO members decided to postpone offering Georgia and Ukraine the chance to join the alliance's Membership Action Plan (MAP), but promised to review the decision in December. The ex-Soviet republics had received strong U.S. backing for their bids.

 

The minister said that prior to the Bucharest summit, the alliance's leading members affirmed that Ukraine and Georgia would decide for themselves whether to join NATO.

 

Lavrov, however, said after the summit that NATO members had indicated that Ukraine's and Georgia's admission would take place for sure which meant "interference in the countries' internal affairs."

"In Ukraine about 70% of the population are against joining NATO. If we take Georgia, then [the unrecognized republics of] Abkhazia and South Ossetia don't even want to hear about Georgia becoming a NATO member," Lavrov said.

[Matter-Eater Lad]

Very interesting, I had no clue before you informed me, thank you.

[bart]

There is Unity in Europe BECAUSE of America and NATO... .

 

 

I dont think so,

And America wouldn't need to be messing with European affairs if you didnt start the two BIGGEST world wars ever..... .

Hmm is that so, tell me where

 

Our policy after ww2 up until now has been promote unity in Europe...hell we basically started the EU...we spent trillions on what is now modern day Europe..

 

Tell me where this has been spent ??

I personally think we should pull out and leave you guys be, let you guys blow the shit out of your own nations in the next major war, and keep our money in America....But Europe has been a bastard by not being thankful for all the shit America did for it after ww2 until now .

 

we have nada to be gratful for apart from the increased threat in corprate terrorism

 

You can thank your economies and unity on American policy and trillions of US dollars....

 

For some dumb ass reason my nation still wants to waste billions on Europe.....pull out of NATO, and let the countries spend billions more money on their own defence and next time they get into trouble, say to hell with you you ungrateful bastard.

 

Us ungraeful we made your nation...

 

 

Hey there,

 

You are so pathetic and you go against what you say, you Bush and his cronies are a bunch of currupt idoits. However your postings only seem to reflect the US policy.

 

Tell me when will you accept, that your country is not always right when it comes to making decisons on the world front.

 

Why does not your country listen to others. who may bee atually in a better position to help resolve world issues.

 

I know what it is the the balance on world power is moving to Europe and Asia, and the US corps have the forsieght to see this, so they are doing anything possible to try and stop the change, however they are so short sighted all that is happening here is that they are making this switch of world power escalated even quicker.

 

There is no chance things that happend 100 years ago will ever repeat it self in Europe

[Matter-Eater Lad]

Ever heard of the EEC....look back on American policy and spending after ww2 until now and you'll see the push for a unified europe and the basic foundations for today's Europe.....Guess they only teach European history in America....

 

 

WW1-WW2 the world's two biggest wars, started by Europe....I'm trying to be nice here, but when you don't even know your own continents history its hard to have patience...

 

We spent TRILLIONS on europe...GAVE AWAY TRILLIONS to western europe since 1939....and you say all we are guilty of is corporate terrorism?

 

In 1948 we could have beat out every European industry with higher quality and cheaper prices...America scaled back production all across the nation, so European companies could produce, make money and be traded....

 

We held back our industry and spent trillions so you guys could catch up....LEARN HISTORY.

 

happaned 100 years ago...try 62.....and Europe is taking the same steps to repeating its mistakes.

 

I will say when my nation is wrong....ive said most polices we've done have been horribly wrong...LIKE REBUILDING EUROPE AND FORMING THE EU.....we shoudl have never given away trillions, and scaled back our industry so you could catch up...BIG AMERICAN POLICY MISTAKE....we should have never helped found the EEC and later EU. We give you trillions and promote unity only for Europe to try to out do america...American policy to Europe for the last 65 years has been a huge mess....but a huge plus for Europe.

 

After ww2, we should have gone into full production, out produced Europe and made you our Bitch...but no we didn't want another world war, so we let you guys play catch up with OUR MONEY and held back our business and production.....The reason Western Europe has an economy is because of reconstruction after ww2 By America.