Sorry, I did go at that all wrong, but it's just when a hurricane powered by a warming tropics rips up the coast here and washes away homes and cars and people get clobbered and killed with blowing pieces of roofs & drowned that I kinda get upset at the jump towards fancy cars and jump away from really truly advanced efficient cars, when the connection is clear. Callous regards we all have towards the atmosphere, the biosphere, and our fellow human beings on the planet - the more remote the connection, the less we care - we need to change that, don't you agree? Severe droughts that kills hundreds in the Horn of Africa and other planetary effects are happening. So 29 is better than 20, but we really ought to be aiming for 60 or 100 MPG if we are aiming for a livable planet, given everyone's desires to own automobiles. It's really more an issue of why the obsession with cars as symbols, shiny carriages with horsepower and peeling rubber to show off in the endless horse races we run amongst ourselves to put our tail feathers in the air, all prodded by the marketing departments through their persistent mind games which we fall for that worries me - blinded by immediate personal gratification and savvy marketing, where the environment always takes a distance second in consideration - and half measures just won't do, we're moving at a snails pace while a billion more people want cars.

Sure, a 2.0 Liter engine is much more efficient than a 4.0 Liter, but I am frustrated by the obsession we seem to have with defining ourselves by what we own, not by who we are or how we are and how we treat one-another. Our value system is upside-down. Wouldn't it be better to show off how earth and human friendly your car is, or your options to take the train are, than to show off how big an engine or how fast your car peels away off the line when the light turns green?? That, and we settle for much less than what is possible from our auto makers - the wastefulness of autos today is obscene, but then it all seems to be driven by money & image rather than by ethics.

The fact that a great deal of the CO2 emissions are from factories doesn't escape me, but the fastest gains we can make in reducing CO2 emissions may be through vastly improved auto efficiency standards and building efficiency standards - manufacturing efficiency is another aspect certainly as well, making them carbon neutral is a laudable goal yes, important as all slices of the energy pie are. But this is a green cars thread, and not a green factory thread! (maybe one of those is needed too...)

Yes, well I'm glad you have lived in California and have family there (I have family there as well), I would imagine that increases your awareness of these issues, especially with the air quality issues in some of the cities, and the sheer volume of car and truck traffic. And I agree, natural disasters will happen, sadly so, no matter what we do. But it's like gambling, and we've been stacking the odds against ourselves through our collective actions. We need to protect our commons - the impacts are real, the odds of severe hurricanes and more frequent hurricanes is but one consequences of our inability to prioritize our overall safety over our individual desires.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's nice to have some fun with fun stuff, but the well being of all comes above our personal desires, and we've got a long long ways to go in many aspects, but especially in auto efficiency and earth-friendliness of the auto. What car companies want is to do as little as possible, to drag their feet, and hype the racing aspects of the car - they sell to our egos, our impulses, our sexual desires to display feathers, not to our altruistic deep social and ethical needs to rise above and act as socially conscious responsible human beings. It isn't radical to break from consumerism, it's a necessary survival mechanism. We only have one home planet, and most of us are on it.

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry for getting a bit testy too:), I worry about the regulation of India and China in terms of industry and emissions but then in a way it feels so hypocritical for the Western World to try and dictate to them how to do things because we all have for the past couple of Centuries if that makes sense?.

I'm actually looking for a practical estate car that I can fit buggies and push chairs in(well in about 8 months anyway) so to me an Audi 2.0 diesel estate is perfect, it's spacious, has 4 wheel drive so bad weather won't hinder driving so much and it will get 50+ MPG so I would say that is a huge step in the green direction for me anyway.

I'm sorry for getting a bit testy too:), I worry about the regulation of India and China in terms of industry and emissions but then in a way it feels so hypocritical for the Western World to try and dictate to them how to do things because we all have for the past couple of Centuries if that makes sense?.

I'm actually looking for a practical estate car that I can fit buggies and push chairs in(well in about 8 months anyway) so to me an Audi 2.0 diesel estate is perfect, it's spacious, has 4 wheel drive so bad weather won't hinder driving so much and it will get 50+ MPG so I would say that is a huge step in the green direction for me anyway.

 

As someone whose dad has a 4 wheel drive A4 estate, they don't do good MPG, he finds it hard to get 45 from it, and that is using every trick he knows to maximse the MPG (similar tricks gets my fabia upto 62 mpg).

I'm sorry for getting a bit testy too:), I worry about the regulation of India and China in terms of industry and emissions but then in a way it feels so hypocritical for the Western World to try and dictate to them how to do things because we all have for the past couple of Centuries if that makes sense?.

I'm actually looking for a practical estate car that I can fit buggies and push chairs in(well in about 8 months anyway) so to me an Audi 2.0 diesel estate is perfect, it's spacious, has 4 wheel drive so bad weather won't hinder driving so much and it will get 50+ MPG so I would say that is a huge step in the green direction for me anyway.

Eh, no biggie. ;) I hope you find a comfy vehicle. :)

China and India's phenomenal growth and consumerism, plus the accompanying industrial expansion and emissions is definitely a big issue as well when it comes to overall carbon emissions, and I agree - who are we to tell anyone else not to seek vast economic improvements. But instead of telling these rapidly blooming nations to slow down their emissions because of climate changing gasses, we could institute national policies to help aid their industries in achieving maximum efficiency using any technologies we've developed that they don't already have. There has to be a way forward of great efficiency, where economic expansion and gross domestic happiness improves, and the quality of the environment is maintained & improved as well.

Estate wagon - and instant confusion over mileage comparisons for me.:dizzy: Using the defuzzler calculator, 50+ Imperial MPG works out to roughly 42 MPG U.S., or 5.6 L/100Km in the Canadian & EU & Latin American Universe.

So that's pretty good, Diesels are better to begin with for mileage, but as David points out, there's a kind of mileage inflation auto companies often use, so the mileage will undoubtedly be less than that, which is something to consider. If we demanded it of the auto makers, they could be making cars that get in the range of 90 -120 MPG with existing technology, which is probably what we need to be demanding of them, as this is a realistically achievable mark with today's technologies, but we will have to prod them.

This is what I'm reading here in National Geo. Mag., Dec. 2009 issue, p. 29: "By 2008, the level of CO2 in the tub was 385 ppm and rising by 2 or 3 ppm each year. To stop it at 450 ppm, Stearman says, a level many scientists consider dangerously high:stunned:, the world would have to cut emissions by around 80 percent by 2050. " "Plants, oceans, and rocks all drain carbon from the atmosphere, but as climatologist David Archer explains in his book The Long Thaw, those drains are slow. It's going to take them hundreds of years to remove most of the CO2 that humans are pouring into the tub and hundreds of thousands to remove it all. Stopping the rise of CO2 will thus require huge cuts in emissions from cars, power plants, and factories, until inflow no longer exceeds outflow."

So cutting emissions by 80% means a lot of reductions in all the major contributing sources, and there's no way around it - automobiles are a big part of the total - on par with electricity generated from burning coal: Carbon Dioxide - Human-Related Sources and Sinks of Carbon Dioxide | Climate Change - Greenhouse Gas Emissions | U.S. EPA

So we will have to triple auto mileage in the next few decades, and replace half the global transportation fleet with green-energy rechargeable electrics, if we're going to cut auto emissions by 80% by 2050, while adding a billion or more new autos to the roads. And I think the citizens of India and China will want these changes sooner than anyone else, since the cities in both those nations are very populous and the air quality is adversely affecting citizen's lives; they'll be at the forefront of these improvements. So we can do it, and the results can only make things better for us all!

NOW POSTMEN IN THE DANISH ISLAND OF BORNHOLM WILL BEGIN USING ELECTRIC CARS (source: Berlingske Tidende - a Danish newspaper 2.9.11)

 

ELECTRIC CARS. The mailmen in the Danish island of Bornholm are replacing the old mail vans with electric ones. It is the first step in a process to propagate electric cars with Post Danmark. The mailmen in Bornholm have been chosen because the island of Bornholm is ideal with short distances, and also because a large part of the electricity comes from wind energy. "Here we have a unique opportunity to generate knowledge of electric cars as distribution vehicles contributing to eventually propagating electric cars to all of Denmark", says the head of Distribution, Post Danmark. He says that not only do they have future plans of using electric transport vehicles contributing to reducing the CO2 emissions. It is also examined whether in future you can drive - using clean green energy, i.e. surplus power. In connection with the test, special recharging stations have to be established for the cars.

That's an excellent step to take Nancy, having the government's postal service take the first step to pioneer the common usage of electric vehicles, especially on an island with short routes. With government investment comes the first step and support for the switch-over (pun intended) to electrics. ;)

The US ironically had mostly green-tech delivery systems in 1900, with postal delivery being either by horse-drawn carriage, or by electric delivery vehicles! electric-vehicles.pdf (application/pdf Object)

Here, the US postal service has about 43,000 electric vehicles in service, still a small % of the total, but a good start - and that could be a lot more!

UPS to deploy 100 electric trucks in California | Post & Parcel

Or with more Green alternatives, less trees cut and more communications electronically: » Step Forward | U.S. Postal Service Delivers It Green Ecology Today: Ecology News, Information & Commentary Blog

As someone whose dad has a 4 wheel drive A4 estate, they don't do good MPG, he finds it hard to get 45 from it, and that is using every trick he knows to maximse the MPG (similar tricks gets my fabia upto 62 mpg).

 

Coming from a petrol powered Range Rover Sport even 45 MPG would be absolute heaven for me, the only bad thing is I hate filling up a diesel especially if I forget to put on the gloves they have on the forecourt:laugh3:.

File:Obeissante.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anyhow, a bus from 1875. If not for all corporate regulation favoring railroads, buses would have taken off long before our modern age!

But what does that have to do with Range Rovers and Estate Wagons and things!!:laugh3:

Why not get a good team of horses, and hitch a real estate wagon up for true green transportation - just add hay, oats, and water, and your power plant is fueled up!

wagon with team - Google Images

I think I've hit the max MPG of my car, it's stuck at 61.8 for the past couple weeks, even with a couple good runs, although the trip computer is stupid, it jumps straight from 61.5 to 61.7 (and back again) like 61.6 doesn't exist.

 

I've been very green at work, not only have I badgered people into recycling used toners (they were just throwing them away in the bin!), I'm now ride around site on one of these:

 

My one is blue, although a pink one would be cool, what one-way system? :P

I think I've hit the max MPG of my car, it's stuck at 61.8 for the past couple weeks, even with a couple good runs, although the trip computer is stupid, it jumps straight from 61.5 to 61.7 (and back again) like 61.6 doesn't exist.

 

I've been very green at work, not only have I badgered people into recycling used toners (they were just throwing them away in the bin!), I'm now ride around site on one of these:

 

My one is blue, although a pink one would be cool, what one-way system? :P

Hey, you're getting fantastic mileage given your vehicle's peak performance - the rest is a matter of getting the vehicle manufacturer's to improve their technologies for improved efficiency, something that needs to happen and can happen as the room for improvement in their field is so great.

And the bike is cool!:cool: How is it for stability though? Is that Pink or is that Magenta? :laugh3: Looks like some variant of both..

But Blue is pretty cool though, gotta love the deep colors..

My Green Machine is almost complete - now I just need a horse or a team of oxen, and I'm set. (or a camel maybe, or donkey?!..)

File:Obeissante.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

Anyhow, a bus from 1875. If not for all corporate regulation favoring railroads, buses would have taken off long before our modern age!

But what does that have to do with Range Rovers and Estate Wagons and things!!:laugh3:

Why not get a good team of horses, and hitch a real estate wagon up for true green transportation - just add hay, oats, and water, and your power plant is fueled up!

wagon with team - Google Images

 

As much as I do love horses, their kind of awkward to park in London, that and I prefer to just pat them and feed them apples and stuff rather than ride them since I got thrown off one and it hurt alot, if you've really got the space and time to use them for transport, you should horses are beautiful animals.

Hey, you're getting fantastic mileage given your vehicle's peak performance - the rest is a matter of getting the vehicle manufacturer's to improve their technologies for improved efficiency, something that needs to happen and can happen as the room for improvement in their field is so great.

And the bike is cool!:cool: How is it for stability though? Is that Pink or is that Magenta? :laugh3: Looks like some variant of both..

But Blue is pretty cool though, gotta love the deep colors..

My Green Machine is almost complete - now I just need a horse or a team of oxen, and I'm set. (or a camel maybe, or donkey?!..)

 

As long as I don't hit any pot-holes I'm fine

As much as I do love horses, their kind of awkward to park in London, that and I prefer to just pat them and feed them apples and stuff rather than ride them since I got thrown off one and it hurt alot, if you've really got the space and time to use them for transport, you should horses are beautiful animals.

>Then you will need a pair of oxen. They pull through anythings, will dine on cardboard in cities, are much shorter and hence easier to park in London, aand if you park them in the basement, they'll heat your home!:laugh3: I suppose I could get horses, that's a thought.. the tamer ones, no thoroughbred race horses!:stunned: Last horse we had here was named Pancho Vila - a little painted pony, renowned as an escape artist on the farm. I'm still working on the wagon - Studebaker made some fine vehicles, but every time I call the factory, they claim they're all out of stock parts I want.:P

>And David, you know that's true - potholes can be bike benders! How are the potholes in the roads there? I know from stories about metal plates being put over monster pot holes in big cities like NYC... and the old highway dept. saying about road repair - we were instructed to let the baby potholes develop, as a measure of job security..;)

>Then you will need a pair of oxen. They pull through anythings, will dine on cardboard in cities, are much shorter and hence easier to park in London, aand if you park them in the basement, they'll heat your home!:laugh3: I suppose I could get horses, that's a thought.. the tamer ones, no thoroughbred race horses!:stunned: Last horse we had here was named Pancho Vila - a little painted pony, renowned as an escape artist on the farm. I'm still working on the wagon - Studebaker made some fine vehicles, but every time I call the factory, they claim they're all out of stock parts I want.:P

>And David, you know that's true - potholes can be bike benders! How are the potholes in the roads there? I know from stories about metal plates being put over monster pot holes in big cities like NYC... and the old highway dept. saying about road repair - we were instructed to let the baby potholes develop, as a measure of job security..;)

 

The UK road network has had 30 odd years of massive under investment, I believe a figure came out in summer 2009 of a rough guess of how much money it would take to put the roads right (no pot-holes etc) and it was something like £30 Billion. 2 harsh winters later that figure would most likely be 50 Billion by now.

 

It's more minor roads which get ignored, but with the finish of most of the rebuilding works at work, the roads at work are getting a nice touch-up where the construction traffic have messed it up.

The UK road network has had 30 odd years of massive under investment, I believe a figure came out in summer 2009 of a rough guess of how much money it would take to put the roads right (no pot-holes etc) and it was something like £30 Billion. 2 harsh winters later that figure would most likely be 50 Billion by now.

 

It's more minor roads which get ignored, but with the finish of most of the rebuilding works at work, the roads at work are getting a nice touch-up where the construction traffic have messed it up.

 

How much does Road Tax get the treasury again?.

>Then you will need a pair of oxen. They pull through anythings, will dine on cardboard in cities, are much shorter and hence easier to park in London, aand if you park them in the basement, they'll heat your home!:laugh3: I suppose I could get horses, that's a thought.. the tamer ones, no thoroughbred race horses!:stunned: Last horse we had here was named Pancho Vila - a little painted pony, renowned as an escape artist on the farm. I'm still working on the wagon - Studebaker made some fine vehicles, but every time I call the factory, they claim they're all out of stock parts I want.:P

>And David, you know that's true - potholes can be bike benders! How are the potholes in the roads there? I know from stories about metal plates being put over monster pot holes in big cities like NYC... and the old highway dept. saying about road repair - we were instructed to let the baby potholes develop, as a measure of job security..;)

 

No a Race Horse would be a bit of a handful,I mostly tend to cycle unless I'm going to the supermarket so can't carry stuff or it's raining.

The UK road network has had 30 odd years of massive under investment, I believe a figure came out in summer 2009 of a rough guess of how much money it would take to put the roads right (no pot-holes etc) and it was something like £30 Billion. 2 harsh winters later that figure would most likely be 50 Billion by now.

 

It's more minor roads which get ignored, but with the finish of most of the rebuilding works at work, the roads at work are getting a nice touch-up where the construction traffic have messed it up.

> Hm, somehow I thought only here could roads be falling apart like that!:laugh3: Hm, yes, 30 years of underinvestment will pretty much allow roads to crumble away.. and the more one waits, the heftier the price tag, how true. At least you can enjoy some fine roads leading to / at work, a joy to have good roads that only truly gets appreciated when one has to deal with bad roads on a daily basis! Here the roads have been re-done to a large extent, except for the secondary roads, which have begun to revert to gravel.

? I wonder what will happen as oil becomes scarce - so will road oil!.. We may revert to granite pavers possibly, or some tarry goo made from biomass distillates as the binder. What are your thoughts on that?

No a Race Horse would be a bit of a handful,I mostly tend to cycle unless I'm going to the supermarket so can't carry stuff or it's raining.

:) I wasn't suggesting a race horse, unless you want to get to work in a hurry! And truth be known, horses and cows emit quite a bit of methane, which is a potent greenhouse gas, but I think when you go slower you become immersed more in nature, more aware of one's surrounding, which changes minds, so I wouldn't discount the horse completely, for while it emits greenhouse gases, it may change our views of the world in ways that bring us full circle and back in tune with nature.

Cycling - that's great!! You must be in great shape then?!!;) If everyone did that most days, half of our problems would be solved. I need to get a bike in running shape here, plus a trailer for groceries - always liked the idea of using a bike 4 out of 5 days a week.

I'm thinking too I could make an electric wagon, just go slower so the air friction isn't a big deal - mount the batteries on a rack beneath the bed, drive it off a simple belt drive to one front wheel..:thinking:.. just an idea, maybe more charming than practical though!:laugh3:

But for family cars, that's a territory most green cars aren't quite at yet - I like the bionic concept car's shape for that, maybe it will become production some day? Mercedes-Benz bionic car at the MoMA - Car Body Design

The problems to solve involve more inclusiveness, I do think there is a need for family-sized vehicles to be included into the green vehicle lineup, something which aside from the Dymaxion and some rare concept cars seems to be almost totally lacking (help me out if I'm mistaken in my assumption here!)

Will the future be electric, or will it be liquid fuels, or something else? I pondered this today, and it seems that as electrics fill more of the market, then earth-friendly liquid fuels will drop in price, so there will probably wind up being some balance and mix of both in the future - based on fuel costs and preferences. Hydrogen may vie as well, depending on Lithium availability, and a plethora of other possibilities.

But the instant alternative would be to make most trips on bicycles, save the autos for times when the bike won't fill the bill, as you're doing - that makes good sense, and would save us all a lot on health problems as well. Probably the last thing that will happen here in the land of the Lincolns, but we're trying everything else first, so we're getting there!:laugh3:

The premise is simple, to blend with nature, work in harmony with Gaia. To truly progress we must not be afraid to leave our old shell behind, and discover a new form, a better fit for our world. Many things still carry forward, many things will be completely new concepts..

But yes, what is possible is amazing - we haven't even begun to really approach the peak of efficiency, thus we can actually have the pizza and beer without the costly energy bills to get them made and delivered.

First though, common sense can solve much of the challenges we face - the simple act of biking when possible to get around, walking places, making better use of trips, designing layouts to maximize efficiency - all simple things that help solve the energy puzzles. I commend all those who do - the answer is as simple as our own two legs.

Though I find some odd responses when I walk places - everything from thoughtful passersby who stop with their vehicles asking if I need a ride, to police officers who stop me thinking I must be on the run!:laugh3: So if you get some strange responses, be not alarmed - it takes time for a good trend to catch on in places where it never existed before, and for our fellow time travelers to understand that we are merely taking a different path.

Train, Plane, Automobile - on Foot or by Horseback - whatever moves ya!

I found this pretty interesting: Venturi’s electro-solar hybrid Astrolab is an eco-friendly venture

Bah, no weekend trains all month due to rail replacement works, nay for slow buses :(

rails and trails

 

Bah, no weekend trains all month due to rail replacement works, nay for slow buses :(

Hm, sounds like a long overdue upgrade though - here, the tracks are pretty rough, many parts look like spaghetti noodles laid on crumbling wood beams, so maybe that's a good sign of better rail to come? Derailments can be interesting though - I recall scooping up a little sample of roofing granules from one such wreck here, as though it was good for anything!:laugh3: (hey, it was sparkly, thought it might look cool in the aquarium).

Ran across some interesting sites related to electric bikes and hypermiling: E-Bike kit. Electric Bicycle Conversions.

 

Boy Drives 1,980 Miles On 1 Gallon Of Gas | Pakalert Press

 

 

Green Car News | Hypermiling

:cyclist:

:laugh3: I see - you're a minimalist! Now just add matter to that, and some magic things to propel it, and you'll be set.

:hat::elf:

 

<3

Hm, sounds like a long overdue upgrade though - here, the tracks are pretty rough, many parts look like spaghetti noodles laid on crumbling wood beams, so maybe that's a good sign of better rail to come? Derailments can be interesting though - I recall scooping up a little sample of roofing granules from one such wreck here, as though it was good for anything!:laugh3: (hey, it was sparkly, thought it might look cool in the aquarium).

Ran across some interesting sites related to electric bikes and hypermiling: E-Bike kit. Electric Bicycle Conversions.

 

Boy Drives 1,980 Miles On 1 Gallon Of Gas | Pakalert Press

 

 

Green Car News | Hypermiling

:cyclist:

 

It's replacement of the rails and making changes to bridges so that bigger shipping containers can be shipped along that line, in some cases making the bed of the railway lower if the bridge can't be make taller