seriously DEEP questions!

[hotdensestate]

 

Anarchism, unlike socialism, is incredibly complex.Whatever you imagine anarchy to be like in your head is probably wrong, because of what Hayek refers to as the "discovery process" - people voluntarily working together to discover the best ways to manage societal problems typically don't use the same methods governments impose. Price signals determine what each individual values and in what ratios they value it - for instance, one family might rather take their chances with a less-safe car, while spending their money on superior structural quality of their home. Other families might choose the opposite, or might rather just save their money. You can't predict these things. Politics is about forcing everyone to make the same choices, which destroys the price-signal system that communicates scarcity.

 

Socialism, on the other hand, is very simple. It is a denial of reality. Whatever scarcity/abundance that exists for any good/service is ignored by bureaucrats who wish to shape society in their "ideal" way. Don't have enough food for everyone? No problem, ignore the existence of scarcity and FORCE everyone to share their calories. It works in the short-term, but it doesn't address the underlying problem - scarcity of food. So now that food is socialized, there is no profit to be had in discovering new ways to expand the supply of food. That sector of the economy stagnates like swamp water, and progress is lost. The exact same thing happens in any area of the economy - whether it's education, healthcare, security, transportation... whatever. Government regulations destroy our ability to discover alternatives and make progress.

 

I'm not saying it's simplistic. I'm saying the idea of a society being able to exist without some form of government arising is naive... there are always going to be thugs taking peoples' money for protection (similar to the tax system we have in place now.) I'm comparing the naiveté of thinking you could have a stable system without thugs taking people's money with the (more widely practiced) naiveté of thinking a socialistic system could work (which it can't). I didn't say that very clearly.

 

Less government is better. No government could never work. Governments WILL always be there, in one form or another. Governments look out for people as little as they can with still successfully getting away with it (...remaining in power). Of course, if governments can't be held to a standard by the people (they generally can't) their power should be reduced. But if, eg, the United States (just using this example as I live here) government was taken down, we would get a bunch of small-scale thugs controlling the weak, which would be worse than the system we have in place, because right now, the public can hold the government up to at least a few standards, and generally speaking the government can't get away with murdering people for not, eg, paying taxes. (Jail, yes. Jail is bad, but not as bad as murder. I know you are going to say "but people would defend themselves" -- what about the weak?) Unorganized governments of thugs and petty rulers are worse than our basically-democratic system because we have at least a little control over our government. Our government has issues, but destroying it is not the solution. To think that destroying our current government entirely would really improve things for people is naive, in my opinion.

 

(To be honest, this is basically philosophy. A perfectly anarchic society is as impossible as a perfectly socialistic society -- which is why I think it's silly to be a full anarchist, and equally silly (or a bit sillier) to be a full socialist. We obviously disagree but I stand by my views until I see enough evidence otherwise.)

[Saffire]

No government could never work. Governments WILL always be there, in one form or another.

 

This is like saying "No religion could never work. Religions WILL always be there, in one form or another."

 

We're currently in a point in history where religions' control over peoples lives is waning, particularly in countries with low church attendance and high numbers of atheists - you don't see an inordinate amount of sinning occurring in those countries (in fact, quite the opposite!).

 

The belief in the necessity of God is exactly the same as the belief in the necessity of government. Right now, there is an overwhelming sense that government is necessary for the smooth functioning of society (primarily due to the fact most children grow up in government-run schools). People know that theft and murder is wrong, regardless of what the Bible says - but they are still indoctrinated to believe the Government is the miraculous exception to the rule ("God Walking On Earth").

 

What will happen, eventually, is that people will become aware that governments aren't necessary, or are overrated. And when that happens, other people will see the success of non-government solutions and will withdraw their consent to be governed. It'll spread in the same way secularism is spreading.

 

The fear of "gangs of thugs roaming" and preying on the weak is a common Hobbesian argument for the necessity of government. But what, praxeologically, is keeping the same thing from happening today? Nothing in particular. In theory, I could go get a group of friends together, buy some guns, and go hold up a bunch of elderly people at their homes. I could do this quickly, before the police can catch me. If I was smart about it, I could do it without being discovered, for a very long time.

 

There is nothing magic, or special about a Government that makes it any better than other institutions or individuals in the effort against this sort of preying. The fact that police exist nearby shouldn't make you feel any safer than you are when you are in the wilderness, miles from any police station - after all, police don't have an obligation to help you. They collect a paycheck regardless of whether you are safe and sound, or just a stain on the wall.

[Saffire]

This has already happened in the UK, The British government has given up almost all of its powers to Brussells and the EU, Most of the laws we have to abide here in Britain are from the EU. I agree it is not going to happen anytime soon on a global scale (I wanna hear both sides of the tale, see its not about races, its the places, faces, where your blood comes from..) but It is essential for the future.

 

Right, the EU is an intergovernmental organization that's designed to make Europe somehow more powerful (counterbalance the US and China economically). But the reality is that the EU makes Europe weaker. Eventually the Euro will collapse. The rules and regulations only serve to destroy jobs and inhibit competition. The EU was sold to Europeans as some unifying force, but it's like forcing people to live with their in-laws. You might love them as family, but eventually they drive you crazy and you put potassium in their coffee.

 

also saffire, that kid the barefoot bandit is a legend, did you know a hollywood producer wants to make a film about him?

 

Yes! He didn't kill anyone, but he committed the worst crime imaginable - making the government look bad. They spent over 2 years trying to catch him and he kept getting away. He has tens of thousands of fans on Facebook. So I'm sure he'll spend the majority of the rest of his life in jail because the government will want to "make an example" of him or whatever. I hope if/when he gets out, that he can make some serious cash off his story. But the government might try to take that away from him too.

[christopher Martin]

 

Yes! He didn't kill anyone, but he committed the worst crime imaginable - making the government look bad. They spent over 2 years trying to catch him and he kept getting away. He has tens of thousands of fans on Facebook. So I'm sure he'll spend the majority of the rest of his life in jail because the government will want to "make an example" of him or whatever. I hope if/when he gets out, that he can make some serious cash off his story. But the government might try to take that away from him too.

 

I loved the fact that he has an IQ 3 less than einstein! and that he had never had any formal training on how to fly airplanes. hilarious! we only heard about it here recently because we had a fugitive called Raoul Moat that declared war on the Northumbria police. They tasered him and he shot himself two days ago.

[Electric.Candy]

Ok so you cant be a coldplay fan and step into the sacred lounge?

 

boy, you need a VIP access :charming:

[christopher Martin]

boy, you need a VIP access :charming:

 

hahaha how can i earn it?!

[Electric.Candy]

; )

[Destrokk]

So much text in this thread. :dizzy:

[ColdplayOlivia]

But Who Is god?