Does anybody else think Nelson Mandela is overrated?

[BirdOfPrey]

I don't care. lol

[christopher Martin]

you should go to wikileaks more if you back the cause so much

 

Im not a hardcore supporter or anything i just think Sadam HAD to be removed for the sake of the entire world, let alone the citizens of Iraq. I have made concessions in this debate, before I believed that the lives of the Iraqi people were comparitively better off, but now I have taken what you have all said on board, I sense a bit of hostility towards my views Braddock? Maybe i'm wrong, perhaps you view my comments as right wing or pro war? Let me assure you I am neither. I just believe Sadam was a real threat to everyone around him and by breaking international law on 5 separate occasions he basically invited the war. Now the real question is, assuming you agree with my previous statement, what would have been the best move directly after his removal? Get out of Iraq straight away or stay till the country is more secure (that was the idea anyway), Well i really dont know.

[Wherrwhfer]

I love the spice girls too!

 

Hhahahahahhaha

[Natster]

Interesting, its a joke how little educated you all are about South Africa and its history, yet here it is, being discussed as though any of you have a clue about the apartheid era, the atrocities of the government of the day, and people like Mandela. As a white South African, sure, I was fearful of what would happen when Mandela was released, but he came out of prison with a heart filled with forgiveness and united a nation. The fact that his dream of an equal nation is presently being shattered every day by the very people that fought so hard for, and brought into power, is now South Africa's current atrocity! Reverse racism and corruption have hailed again, as Mandela legacy slowly starts to fade!!

[christopher Martin]

Interesting, its a joke how little educated you all are about South Africa and its history, yet here it is, being discussed as though any of you have a clue about the apartheid era, the atrocities of the government of the day, and people like Mandela. As a white South African, sure, I was fearful of what would happen when Mandela was released, but he came out of prison with a heart filled with forgiveness and united a nation. The fact that his dream of an equal nation is presently being shattered every day by the very people that fought so hard for, and brought into power, is now South Africa's current atrocity! Reverse racism and corruption have hailed again, as Mandela legacy slowly starts to fade!!

 

I said at the start that I was ignorant of the whole event, this encouraged me to read up on it, I never claimed to be an expert but based on what i know i began to form an opinion.

Its interesting to hear your views as you are South African, out of curiousity do you still think there is an element of racial separation in your society? Obviously there will be individuals but I mean in general.

Also you say you were worried about when he came out of prison and that he was sorry for his actions, so you feel his actions were unjustified?

Also you mention positive discrimination, I think this is happening everywhere in the world right now, its utterly absurd.

[Prince Myshkin]

Im not a hardcore supporter or anything i just think Sadam HAD to be removed for the sake of the entire world, let alone the citizens of Iraq. I have made concessions in this debate, before I believed that the lives of the Iraqi people were comparitively better off, but now I have taken what you have all said on board, I sense a bit of hostility towards my views Braddock? Maybe i'm wrong, perhaps you view my comments as right wing or pro war? Let me assure you I am neither. I just believe Sadam was a real threat to everyone around him and by breaking international law on 5 separate occasions he basically invited the war. Now the real question is, assuming you agree with my previous statement, what would have been the best move directly after his removal? Get out of Iraq straight away or stay till the country is more secure (that was the idea anyway), Well i really dont know.

 

the 'could you do better? no, well shut up' theory doesn't work? that's like a professional sportsman not performing to his abilities and fucking up all the time but not trying to rectify things. he's still better than all the fans but they have a right to be annoyed. i'm not a politician so i'm not privy to all of the information that they receive however i do know that there are several other countries who have behaved in similar ways who have not been invaded by the US.

 

do you honestly think that iraq were going to take over the world with their weapons of mass destruction? they are small fry in this world. and don't go on about how they hid the weapons. there is no real evidence that they existed. rumours and unusual behaviour, but nothing that would stand up in the court of law. i'm not saying sadam didn't have to go, but why is it up to the US to sort it out? and why use such extreme methods which have clearly not gone to plan?

[Prince Myshkin]

I said at the start that I was ignorant

 

so why do you talk with such authority?

 

i talk with authority because i'm a bit of a prick when it comes to arguing with morons and enjoy watching them squirm, but you seem like a decent guy so i don't know how you became so militant in your views on him. when you first came in you looked like you were ready to learn, either way, but contribute through debate, but all of a sudden you became positive of all the answers. seriously, it's like you read one article on the internet and your mind was decided.

 

i began by asking questions as to why he is seen like this and then all of a sudden you joined a few others in being vehement that he was amazing (which he may well be). so i rose to your sheep like quality of following (which i regret) by putting less structure into my argument and taking more time to make you look like a fool instead.

[christopher Martin]

 

do you honestly think that iraq were going to take over the world with their weapons of mass destruction? they are small fry in this world. and don't go on about how they hid the weapons. there is no real evidence that they existed. rumours and unusual behaviour, but nothing that would stand up in the court of law. i'm not saying sadam didn't have to go, but why is it up to the US to sort it out? and why use such extreme methods which have clearly not gone to plan?

 

I think the only way the world could say with certainty that Iraq was dissarmed was by checking for ourselves, You must realise that the weapons inspectorate do not have unlimited access to the look around, the only way we can assertain for certain that Sadam and his regime do not pose a threat is to check for ourselves.

Are you aware of Sadams comments on the Invasion/iradication of Kuwait? He said he had regrets, He regretted invaded Kuwait before he had acquired a nuclear bomb, This crackpot dictator posed a threat to everyone around him and the rest of the world in my honest opinion. He sat on one of the richest oil fields on earth and what do you think that money went on?

I know you said you realise Sadam had to go but just let my try to justify why I think it is up to the US (and the rest of the world actually) to remove him.

 

There are laws that all nations must abide by or they will lose their sovereignty, Iraq broke the following,

1. Violations of the genocide convention which the US have signed. It mandates that the US & other nations must move to punish the offending nation.

2. Violations of the non-proliferation treaty, Iraq has used WMDs on its own territory and the territory of others.

3. Aiding and abetting national terrorists groups, Iraq is guilty of this beyond count.

4. Occupying the territory of other nations, which they have done in the past, present and planned to in the future.

 

So I think that the nations of the world have an obligation to uphold the basic principles of law.

[Prince Myshkin]

lol, too long to read

[christopher Martin]

so why do you talk with such authority?

 

i talk with authority because i'm a bit of a prick when it comes to arguing with morons and enjoy watching them squirm, but you seem like a decent guy so i don't know how you became so militant in your views on him. when you first came in you looked like you were ready to learn, either way, but contribute through debate, but all of a sudden you became positive of all the answers. seriously, it's like you read one article on the internet and your mind was decided.

 

i began by asking questions as to why he is seen like this and then all of a sudden you joined a few others in being vehement that he was amazing (which he may well be). so i rose to your sheep like quality of following (which i regret) by putting less structure into my argument and taking more time to make you look like a fool instead.

 

lol the most backhanded complement of all time, Im a moron but a decent guy, thanks. My mind was made up about the war long long ago, I started off thinking that it was a total mistake, but then i read about things like Sadam making relatives of publicly executed citizens applaud as they watched or they would kill another relative, I read about the 180,000 Kurds gassed, I read about people seeing Sadams army coming over the horizon and slaughtering indiscriminately. I cannot imagine what it must be like the have the government condone murder, I cannot imagine an opressive totalitarian state with a psychopathic dictator.

 

On Mandela I already explained why I gave my view, its directly after the quote you mined. It also answers the last part of your reply, as to why i suddenly began thinking he wasnt overrated, I read through the events, formed a fair minded, logical decision and began to express my views, thats all, I wasnt trying to just go against you, I wasnt trying to be a sheep, I just thought I would explain my thoughts.

 

Im glad to hear your very last comments, all I can add is that I never want to come across as ignorant or arrogant, I am always open to better ideas, its how I learn. Also for the record im not American.

[Prince Myshkin]

too long to read

[christopher Martin]

lol, too long to read

 

I should have condensed it perhaps.

[Prince Myshkin]

I should have condensed it perhaps.

 

too short to care

[christopher Martin]

too long to read

 

Condensed,

 

Sadam broke laws. US cannot allow. Murder, innocent lives lost through Sadam. Immoral to leave people to suffer. Im not arrogant.

 

Hows that?

[Prince Myshkin]

Condensed,

 

Sadam broke laws. US cannot allow. Murder, innocent lives lost through Sadam. Immoral to leave people to suffer. Im not arrogant.

 

Hows that?

 

bit longer

[christopher Martin]

too short to care

 

one moment you seem to care, the next you are not interested in anything, I havent got time for this. I would rather talk to my dog.

[Prince Myshkin]

one moment you seem to care, the next you are not interested in anything, I havent got time for this. I would rather talk to my dog.

 

too long to read

[christopher Martin]

too long to read

 

too hard to read more like, How did you manage to read all those other posts, i mean thats alot of information, maybe your brain goes all fuzzy when alot of information tries to get in?

[christopher Martin]

I could have argued from your side better than you did, its actually hilarious, you know a few tiny bits of information from the media, fucking classic.

[Prince Myshkin]

:kiss:

[christopher Martin]

:kiss:

 

hahahaha you loser, poor Braddock has been spoilt since he was a child, he cannot take somebody else having another opinion and not being able to think of a comeback. poor baby braddock. you can always improve your argument by doing something called "learning" its very interesting.

[Prince Myshkin]

what on earth are you talking about?

that's the first post of yours i've read in a little while. you still going on about me? you don't learn. i'll just keep going

 

 

 

:):):):):)

:wink3::wink3::wink3::wink3::wink3:

:sneaky::sneaky::sneaky::sneaky::sneaky:

[christopher Martin]

hmm so how comes you keep checking this thread? its basically dead, you read my posts but you are just too spoilt to admit you dont have a clue. you need to be more humble or you are going to remain a total prick for the rest of your life.

[Prince Myshkin]

:rolleyes:

read back in the thread and see how many people agree with you

then look at the amount of people who laughed at you

 

the only thing people agree with you on is the mandela things and that is their prerogative, however that is not them agreeing with you, it's you agreeing with them. at the start you said you didn't know, then all of a sudden began agreeing with others.

 

incidentally, back to an earlier point, i don't understand why racism would explain my stance on mandela. if i was a racist i'd have no respect for him. i have clearly stated i just don't see why he is the most respected man alive when it comes to peace. must have said that about ten times. but you twist words.

 

anyway, i have had my fun with you. it's been funny watching you misinterprate and bitch. i'm not the one being spoilt. i have my opinions, you have yours but you get so worked up if i question anything, it's hilarious. i'm done talking, i've made my points. i'll just keep poking you with a stick and laughing

 

 

 

:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

[christopher Martin]

no i formed my own opinions on Mandela, But even if i had been convinced by others it would have been because they made a better case than yours.

The war is highly unpopular, I expect nothing less. Glad you had fun, I finally get to see your true intentions shining through.

 

and with regard to poking me, go ahead, knock yourself out kid