Fascism on the Rise

[Saffire]

http://www.youtube.com/embed/8jUU3yCy3uI?rel=0

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/embed/aDFdwUY2Oks

 

http://www.youtube.com/embed/laZUjLe6exE?rel=0

 

Here's a thread to post similar videos in the near future, as "austerity" ramps up.

 

To all my Canadian, European, etc friends: Please remember that these riots and police brutality are the endgame of all experiments in socialism. Because the incentive to produce is reduced, and the total consumption of resources is increased, socialism inevitably leads to shortages and reduction of quality-of-life. In America, we are quite familiar with socialism - it is a myth this country is more capitalist than others.

 

Misunderstanding economics, denigrating capitalism, and questioning the efficacy and morality of voluntary exchange leads to these breakdowns in society. And it will only get worse, as Western governments are united both in debt and their commitment to squelching any dissent. They will call all who don't comply "hippies" or "radicals" (even "terrorists") in an effort to make you turn against your own. The reality is, these people are the ones who are beginning to wake up to the fact that the restaurant is serving last week's soup.

[bart]

Agreed !

[Saffire]

Hah, I'm happy you saw this Bart!

 

I'm not advocating right-wing solutions, either. The conservatives are often as bad as the socialists... The solution is a small government without the power to borrow and print money. I only hope people can learn this fast, and in large numbers.

[chuck kottke]

Fascism by another name is Corporatism - just see what Mussolini described it as. All those social gains made in this nation came at the expense of the lives of coal miners, garment workers, steel mill workers, and many other men and women who put their lives in jeopardy to gain a descent standard of living and a guarantee of retirement in case all else failed (as what did fail in the great crash of 29'). Before then, workers were treated as little more than chattel, the divide between rich and poor was immense; the markets, having been captured by a wealthy few, were not going to allow ordinary working class men and women to rise no matter how hard they worked, or how efficient their work was. Socialism did help a great deal, by providing the safety net all working citizens deserved, ensuring quality public education was made available to all children and young adults, and safeguarding & isolating the markets from banks and from monopolistic tendencies. And it is written in the U.S. constitution, in "providing for the general welfare" - this is part of the social contract we all share in - to promote the blessings of liberty, one needs to consider that we provide a minimum for those in need while increasing opportunities for ethical business to grow in a fair market place, and thus good paying jobs with businesses that are fair to their employees.

Western governments, as I see them, are united under multi-national corporate interests and thus the mega corporate owners have gained control of what used to be real democracies! What citizens everywhere are fighting for is to regain control of their governments (see Jefferson's quote if you like - governments gain the right to govern by consent of the governed) from those individuals who buy off elected officials.

It is not voluntary exchange that is the issue, it is that we no longer live in a world where one can simply 'stake a claim' to some unclaimed property and utilize this property to create goods for trade. And anything which is held in common and is not strongly protected falls to the greedy few who are cutting the rainforests like there's no tomorrow, or extracting resources without any consideration for the citizens living there (see mountaintop removal). Hence, it is up to us to demand a government of, by, and for We the People, and responsive to our interests, to ensure equity and sustainability here on planet earth.

Incidentally, yes, the police action taken against those freely expressing themselves at the Jefferson Memorial was unwarranted, but the motivation behind it may have more to do with those in legal positions or political positions with a bend on power and control over all. Hence, the need for better checks and balances - that has more to do with individuals who attain office through paid political ads, and the behind the scenes payoffs; to keep the masses in line (and sometimes to fill the for-profit prisons), they cook up such unfair ordinances. Challenging such ordinances should be a priority when they conflict with our basic rights, but once again, money talks - those with the dough can afford real lawyers, the rest of us have lost our rights in the money-buys-results world.

[Guest Osaka Sun]

There is a clear difference between socialism and fascism. Please realize that.

 

But no, you're an libertarian, it's expected.

[Saffire]

There is a clear difference between socialism and fascism. Please realize that.

 

Not praxeologically, no. The differences are in your head.

[Guest howyousawtheworld]

Not praxeologically, no. The differences are in your head.

 

You are so correct.

[Guest Osaka Sun]

You are so correct.

 

:facepalm:

[the_gloaming09]

Those videos were ridiculous to watch. Just how people were literally not doing anything, not making any kind of threats whatsoever yet they were beaten and jailed. What a bunch of cowardly pigs to be attacking a bunch of innocent people not doing anything wrong but expressing their "free" rights.

 

Of course though the system is so complex that I'm sure there's always something to arrest people. Also another reason why I guess a lot of police trials are typically never aired or make it too far due to technicalities.

[Saffire]

While I don't agree with Ayn Rand on everything, this is a great quote by her on that subject:

 

"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible to live without breaking laws."

 

This is how regulatory democracy works today. They pass so many laws that nobody knows them all, and selectively enforce them against their enemies.

 

Also, you'll notice governments stop putting people in jail so much during recessions and depressions. Why? To increase the number of fines, of course! The State can never be satisfied... it always needs more money.

[the_gloaming09]

yeah... I've also noticed that people around me have been getting a lot more parking an moving violation tickets.

 

Good quote on that topic, which is true. but at the same time there's also a waste of jailing people such as with the so called drug war. I mean it seems like just a waste of time and money to worry about that when it can go to better things.

 

 

I guess in some sense when they have the saying To Serve & Protect... they're really talking about the state.

 

 

 

The only question I also have is if there are already so many rules and laws in place, to me it seems almost impossible to get rid of them. I mean people in power love power, so why would they lessen the amount they get?

[Saffire]

The only question I also have is if there are already so many rules and laws in place, to me it seems almost impossible to get rid of them. I mean people in power love power, so why would they lessen the amount they get?

 

Great point, and this is where you'll see me start to get into more radical territory, so I don't expect you to agree with me on all this.

 

Right now we have a situation where governments have convinced the vast majority of people that they are some how "bound" by constitutions and laws. At least when we had monarchies, the Kings never made such a claim - everybody sort of understood the king was just acting in his own self-interest. In Democracy, we get this childish fairytale that governments are here to protect us and take care of us when we get old, and keep us from ruining the purity of nature and Bambi. Democracy really is pretty funny when you think about it.

 

So no, you can't get rid of an oppressive government via legislation or elections. And laws and constitutions don't matter (they never did). All that matters is the culture in a society. When the culture is very sympathetic to government, it will devolve into fascism. When it's more sympathetic to individuals, it will hold onto a degree of freedom (more or less).

 

And governments understand this point very well. They're not dummies. So the very first thing most governments try to monopolize is schooling. They want to teach their version of history and make the young children associate government with caring, kindhearted, protective female teachers. So later on, when the students grow up, they think of their fun childhood years and extrapolate that to mean government could improve other areas of their adult life.

 

You'll see some violence here in America, within your lifetime. The question is, what will come next? I'm honestly not sure. Maybe the 50 states will assert their authority, and we'll go back to greater freedom and decentralization. Maybe the military will "temporarily" take over the Federal government and hold onto power indefinitely. Who knows? Keep in mind this stuff isn't very sudden or dramatic. Heck, Lincoln was basically a dictator who slaughtered 600,000 Americans. FDR burned down wheat fields and slaughtered cattle in order to hold up the prices of bread and meat during the deflation of the 1930's. America has a history of retards in charge.

 

EDIT: The other point I wanted to add about public schools real fast is that they segregate the children by age. This is entirely unnatural for humans. Humans develop best as children when they're exposed to and interact with others of all different age groups. Funnily enough, the people who invented our way of schooling were the Germans (just before the Nazis took over a few decades later). You can see how quickly it caused those young people to grow up trusting authority.

[Guest Osaka Sun]

Great point, and this is where you'll see me start to get into more radical territory, so I don't expect you to agree with me on all this.

 

Right now we have a situation where governments have convinced the vast majority of people that they are some how "bound" by constitutions and laws. At least when we had monarchies, the Kings never made such a claim - everybody sort of understood the king was just acting in his own self-interest. In Democracy, we get this childish fairytale that governments are here to protect us and take care of us when we get old, and keep us from ruining the purity of nature and Bambi. Democracy really is pretty funny when you think about it.

 

So no, you can't get rid of an oppressive government via legislation or elections. And laws and constitutions don't matter (they never did). All that matters is the culture in a society. When the culture is very sympathetic to government, it will devolve into fascism. When it's more sympathetic to individuals, it will hold onto a degree of freedom (more or less).

 

And governments understand this point very well. They're not dummies. So the very first thing most governments try to monopolize is schooling. They want to teach their version of history and make the young children associate government with caring, kindhearted, protective female teachers. So later on, when the students grow up, they think of their fun childhood years and extrapolate that to mean government could improve other areas of their adult life.

 

You'll see some violence here in America, within your lifetime. The question is, what will come next? I'm honestly not sure. Maybe the 50 states will assert their authority, and we'll go back to greater freedom and decentralization. Maybe the military will "temporarily" take over the Federal government and hold onto power indefinitely. Who knows? Keep in mind this stuff isn't very sudden or dramatic. Heck, Lincoln was basically a dictator who slaughtered 600,000 Americans. FDR burned down wheat fields and slaughtered cattle in order to hold up the prices of bread and meat during the deflation of the 1930's. America has a history of retards in charge.

 

EDIT: The other point I wanted to add about public schools real fast is that they segregate the children by age. This is entirely unnatural for humans. Humans develop best as children when they're exposed to and interact with others of all different age groups. Funnily enough, the people who invented our way of schooling were the Germans (just before the Nazis took over a few decades later). You can see how quickly it caused those young people to grow up trusting authority.

 

Only objectivists would believe Lincoln was a dictator. Thanks for supporting slavery.

[Guest howyousawtheworld]

:facepalm:

 

Actually presumed wrong. Thought he was talking about communism v fascism. Socialism is as we know not communism so my bad.

 

But Saffire - saying Lincoln was basically a dictator who murdered 600,000 people - not clever. Not clever at all mate.

[Saffire]

I don't support slavery.

 

Lincoln conscripted young men to go fight and die for him in his war, which was a form of slavery (arguably worse than just forcing people to pick cotton in 100F heat).

 

I simply think slavery would have ended naturally (due to economic realities) just as it did in other countries. America was the only country to have a massive civil war over the slavery issue.

[Guest Osaka Sun]

You know slavery still exists, right?

 

And ironically, segregation was only ended by government action in most countries.

[Guest howyousawtheworld]

I don't support slavery.

 

Lincoln conscripted young men to go fight and die for him in his war, which was a form of slavery (arguably worse than just forcing people to pick cotton in 100F heat).

 

I simply think slavery would have ended naturally (due to economic realities) just as it did in other countries. America was the only country to have a massive civil war over the slavery issue.

 

Slavery was a cause to the US Civil War but there was other reasons as well. States rights, economic issues (tariffs in the south etc), Lincoln's election,...

 

And forcing people to pick cotton in 100F heat? Don't think it was quite like that either.

[Saffire]

You know slavery still exists, right?

 

And ironically, segregation was only ended by government action in most countries.

 

Sure, in a few places, on a limited scale. Slavery still exists.

 

Segregation was government policy, not a natural result of market activity. Businesses are incentivized to take on as many profitable employees and customers as they can, regardless of their race.

 

Slavery was a cause to the US Civil War but there was other reasons as well. States rights, economic issues (tariffs in the south etc), Lincoln's election,...

 

Right, but slavery existed in the North as well. Lincoln was quite emphatic about the fact slavery wasn't the driving issue for him. He mainly had his eye on the revenue the Federal government would lose if the South left (from tariffs, as you said). So it was mostly an economic issue, and slavery made for a good moral-cover. Sort of like how Bush used the "liberation" thing when the US invaded Iraq.

 

Anyway, slavery ceases to exist today for a couple reasons. The first is that governments stopped supporting it. Slavery requires a government to socialize the costs of enforcement (runaway slaves were caught by police who gave out rewards). Without this, slavery (on a large scale at least) couldn't be profitable.

 

Second is that people woke up to the fact that it's not very friendly to lock people in non-voluntary labor situations. This is why I'm encouraged. I think in the future, people will view government and taxation the same way, and abolish it.

[Josh42]

http://www.youtube.com/embed/8jUU3yCy3uI?rel=0

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/embed/aDFdwUY2Oks

 

http://www.youtube.com/embed/laZUjLe6exE?rel=0

 

Here's a thread to post similar videos in the near future, as "austerity" ramps up.

 

To all my Canadian, European, etc friends: Please remember that these riots and police brutality are the endgame of all experiments in socialism. Because the incentive to produce is reduced, and the total consumption of resources is increased, socialism inevitably leads to shortages and reduction of quality-of-life. In America, we are quite familiar with socialism - it is a myth this country is more capitalist than others.

 

Misunderstanding economics, denigrating capitalism, and questioning the efficacy and morality of voluntary exchange leads to these breakdowns in society. And it will only get worse, as Western governments are united both in debt and their commitment to squelching any dissent. They will call all who don't comply "hippies" or "radicals" (even "terrorists") in an effort to make you turn against your own. The reality is, these people are the ones who are beginning to wake up to the fact that the restaurant is serving last week's soup.

 

Two videos I linked you to! *feels proud*

 

Only objectivists would believe Lincoln was a dictator. Thanks for supporting slavery.

 

If you don't support Lincoln and a war that claimed hundreds of thousands of lives, then you must support slavery! This is perhaps the worst logic I've ever heard in my life.

[The Final Track]

Finland just announced they're changing the colors of foreigners ID cards to a yellowish brown as opposed to white.

[LoryABjerre]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln_and_slavery

[chuck kottke]

Linking government and slavery is a non sequitur. It isn't the government that enslaves us, but ensures the blessings of liberty if we keep it honest and working for we, the people. Less government? Sure, cut the defense department budget down to that of any other sensible nation's expenditures on defense. But on the whole, I would rather fix it than scrap it all. Stopping the buying and selling of U.S. elections will be the toughest challenge for us all, and we must press for change if we want our countries and world to be a better place.

How bad has it gotten? Well, both Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas, two leading U.S. Supreme Court Justices, have been "featured guests" at secretive political strategy sessions sponsored by Charles and David Koch. The Koch brothers are pretty aggressive political donors whose company, Koch Industries, was a major beneficiary of the Citizens United decision.

In my opinion, Citizens United vs. the Federal Election Commission was a case used by the conservative justices to strike down decades of campaign finance law and thus end sensible limits on spending by corporations and unions. Striking down the law has led to an avalanche of money flowing into the political process visa vi political ads, and Koch's money was behind the campaign of Wisconsin Governor Walker, who has pressed hard to cripple worker's rights.

If we want to end slavery of working class citizens, we need honest government on our side! Otherwise, the wealthy plutocrats will usurp more and more of our rights, and their political cronies will destroy any economic equity we have left.

The danger to the world right now is the concentration of wealth in the very very top, and with that an erosion of the underpinnings of democracy.

[Saffire]

Chuck, all the working droles who make 8 dollars an hour and bust their butts every week without vacation can cut on a TV and see MTV's "Cribs" about billionaires' mansions. The incentive to overthrow the system is low, as long as prices for food and fuel remain low (he has some disposable income to buy drinks), and government abuses are sporadic and isolated. Nobody cares about the other guy as long as he perceives him as "other", and thinks similar abuses committed against himself are unlikely.

 

Just ignore the individuals. Sure, there are bad cops and bad politicians and bad judges and bad rich people. Just like there are bad dentists and bad shoe salesmen.

 

The problem isn't the advertisements. It's what we teach our children - that government can solve all our problems, from slavery to harsh working conditions, to white people treating black people rudely, to the Earth slowly getting warmer, to endangered species, to unsafe cars, to to to to

 

When you look for a single answer for every problem you face, there's a name for that: religion.

[the_gloaming09]

^I'd have to agree with both of you for different reasons.

 

Chuck I agree that spending put into campaigns and advertising is wrong because you cannot really get any candidates who can win the presidency besides Republicans or Democrats even if you were to combine all efforts by all 3rd parties. The Tea Party is the closest thing we have though they're just an extension of the Republican party and I personally think it's just an excuse for a party for racists.

 

I do agree with you though Saffire in that it's not really fair to see people work their asses off but other millionares are shown on tv and as you said incentive to overthrow is limited. Also with cops treating people the way they do (i mean going back to that jefferson memorial video), I don't see any overthrow happening. I also agree that it all has to do with what we teach our children in schools. My friend was discussing and telling me of many attrocities that the US has committed especially in like Venezuela (I think), and our whole mindset to Cuba at the time. I couldn't believe it and also how sided it was towards America being right when from an outside point of view that isn't the case.

 

 

However that being said I do feel that at least in this day and age Government is necessary in some sense. I feel that there is a large majority of the world that needs this because of either their morals towards other humans over such stupid shit (like gender, religion, race, orientation, etc) or some people are not fully civilized and might just turn the world upside down. Also some things are somewhat necessary for the government such as the FDA, working conditions, etc. I think you need these because companies on their own might try to cut corners. I mean even you could see things like the Jungle where they mentioned how meat was handled. Or even on a personal level I have been to restaurants that were closed due to health reasons. I think in some sense government is necessary to keep things in line in some sense. However I feel that it's more of like what the ultimate goal of a parent is... basically just to possibly help guide some uneducated or misguided people, but never going over that step in really interfering.

 

 

Also I agree with your religion argument. I feel it is the source of so many problems being that so many people are misguided and have views on certian topics based on that. But that's another discussion for another time.

[Josh42]

Also I agree with your religion argument. I feel it is the source of so many problems being that so many people are misguided and have views on certian topics based on that. But that's another discussion for another time.

 

 

He was calling government a religion (because people use it as their one answer to everything), not attacking religion as a whole.