Saffire Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 http://www.complex.com/city-guide/2011/12/two-swedes-arrested-for-trying-to-smuggle-550-lbs-of-butter-into-norway What brave police. I'm glad the government is providing order and stability to the people of Norway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Final Track Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Goddamn it, we want butter! btw, why's that bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saffire Posted December 25, 2011 Author Share Posted December 25, 2011 They probably weren't licensed importers, or they didn't pay a tax. (I'm just guessing.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Final Track Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 No, I meant that the police stopped them. Reffering to this: What brave police. I'm glad the government is providing order and stability to the people of Norway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasaa Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 You're probably right, but dammit we want butter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saffire Posted December 25, 2011 Author Share Posted December 25, 2011 Why's it bad that the police stopped them? Because they were peaceful people! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck kottke Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 It's a slippery slope down to the great pond of molten butter, if you let smugglers sneak some in!:P Time to boil water for those government lobsters. Hence the need to remove the influence of special interests in government. I understand the urge to support one's own farmers, but perhaps we need a better comprehensive global trade agreement that actually works for the farmers & consumers everywhere, which will require this global reform movement / revolution to succeed. Because a stick of butter should be made by more than just contented cows - it ought to be fair for everyone involved in the process, from teat to treat. :laugh3: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Final Track Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Why's it bad that the police stopped them? Because they were peaceful people! I disagree with that, but whatever. Looks like the butter shortage will last some way into 2012 as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saffire Posted December 25, 2011 Author Share Posted December 25, 2011 So you think people who sell butter aren't peaceful? Weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Final Track Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Don't put words in my mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saffire Posted December 25, 2011 Author Share Posted December 25, 2011 Well you're entitled to clarify your position, if you'd like. Yeah the butter shortage will last as long as the Norwegian government makes it last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiame Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Butter literally takes about 10-15 minutes to make. I can't comprehend how this is even an issue - unless you own a really busy restaurant - but even then there is a way around it and most consumers are fairly understanding when it comes to stuff like this. It's a bit sad that when something as easy to make as butter stops being made by corporations - everyone starts crying and complaining. Make it yourself people! It's not hard, trust me! It's pretty fun too and it tastes a hell of a lot better! And lasts far longer. Why's it bad that the police stopped them? Because they were peaceful people! Peaceful does not imply that someone is without blame. Nor does it imply that someone is innocent. Nor does it rid someone of any responsibility or consequences of their actions. I can do something completely peaceful that infringes upon the rights of others and indirectly hurts others. Piracy and smuggling are great examples. I think that's what The Final Track was talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck kottke Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 >True, but then the good citizens of Norway will need cows where the consumers are. Town cows, or at least town goats. Then to feed those hungry animals, it takes a lot of grass! That solves the lawn cutting issues, but increases the livestock issues in larger cities. Apartment livestock, that would be interesting.. I suppose the service elevators could handle the loads, and one could bail the grass in summer, hay can ride up in the elevators just as well. Plenty of water in Norway, no problems there, so that checks off the list. Maybe if the roofs are structured well, the livestock can be sheltered there and milked in parlors atop green roofs.. I'm all for it!;) The trouble today is that to live in a modern world we are specialized, it's the tendency and for some things is essential, though perhaps we can have both, or a better blend of the two. Either that, or Norway installs a melted butter pipeline, and contributes to the strategic butter reserve during fat years, and then can withdraw butter as needed during lean years. We've loaded some supertankers with butter, the ports can handle the pumping and metering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiame Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 but then the good citizens of Norway will need cows where the consumers are. The people in Norway are still able to buy cream and salt aren't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck kottke Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 The people in Norway are still able to buy cream and salt aren't they? shhhh!:whistle: If word get's out, my dreams of a smuggling operation will just simply melt away!:P Besides, there would be a cream shortage then, and eggnog without cream would be rather.. healthy?! :laugh3: Ultimately, it comes down to ungulates. Maybe dairy llamas, alpacas, or Shetland cattle on those high-rise roofs... :thinking: Alpine goats? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saffire Posted December 26, 2011 Author Share Posted December 26, 2011 Peaceful does not imply that someone is without blame. Nor does it imply that someone is innocent. Nor does it rid someone of any responsibility or consequences of their actions. I can do something completely peaceful that infringes upon the rights of others and indirectly hurts others. Piracy and smuggling are great examples. I disagree. Piracy isn't theft - it's simply copying, which is peaceful. There are many people who don't believe "intellectual property" is really property, because the concept of property only exists as a shorthand way to settle disputes between people who make claims on the same scarce resources, and data isn't scarce. "Smuggling" is just a dirty word for "trading across imaginary lines on the ground". I see nothing wrong with it. The fact remains that Norwegians are without butter because of their own government's use of force and threats of force against peaceful traders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiame Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 I disagree. Piracy isn't theft - it's simply copying, which is peaceful. There are many people who don't believe "intellectual property" is really property, because the concept of property only exists as a shorthand way to settle disputes between people who make claims on the same scarce resources, and data isn't scarce. The....lack....of......understanding...is.......so.....frustrating... There are literally thousands of examples I can use to cripple your argument here, but I'm going to use Zombieland. If you aren't familiar with the film, here is the link: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/zombieland/ At first glance of Zombieland's figures, it did really well. It more than tripled its production budget and the creators were all set to make a sequel and to further the series. Until they hit a road block. Zombieland was the most pirated film on the internet for about six months straight. It turns out, for a sequel to be granted, the publisher (Sony) wanted the film to make at least 100 million. It made about 90. Zombieland would have quite easily flown past the 100 million mark if it were not for piracy. If even one half of the downloaders would have instead saw the movie in theaters or purchased it, Zombieland's profit would have been near 250 million. And that's only with one half. So let's fast forward to the end of 2011 and Zombieland 2 still isn't a guarantee to be made. So piracy has robbed a company of up to 300 million dollars in profit - that should have been rightfully theirs. You can spin it either way, but piracy loses corporations millions of dollars a year. I don't see how anyone in their right mind can say piracy is totally fine. Imagine if you were writing a novel for six years. Then I walked into your office, photocopied it and gave it away to everyone who was interested in it. Then you release it, and the book makes only a quarter of the amount of money it was expected to make. So you've only just cracked profit and the book turns out to be a huge financial waste of time. Your publisher dumps you and you end up virtually where you started. Then you come up to me and say "Kiame, you photocopied my book before release and gave it out for free! You've cost me a lot of money!". And I reply "Aw shut up. Intellectual property isn't really property. I didn't actually STEAL the book - I just COPIED it". That's what piracy does. To imply that it's not a hurtful crime is incredibly dishonest. "Smuggling" is just a dirty word for "trading across imaginary lines on the ground". I see nothing wrong with it. The basic concept behind smuggling's illegality is the fact that the government has to protect their own interests and their own developers from outside sources that may be able to undercut them. Which I would hardly call evil. It's simply a form of protection that ensures they can track the goods coming in and out of their country and are able to protect their own manufacturers. The fact remains that Norwegians are without butter because of their own government's use of force and threats of force against peaceful traders. A few people on here have expressed annoyance over your ability to try to spin absolutely everything to fit your own view point. I don't know if you have been following the news or not, but it seems the butter shortage has been caused by Tine's ( a private company) stranglehold on the industry. They have created a monopoly. The real problem is that there are pieces of legislation that make it very hard for anyone to compete. So in Norway there is this awkward situation where things are half socialist and half free market. So you're left with a huge company rising to the top and then finding pieces of government legislation to protect them from falling. http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/12/08/calls-rise-to-bust-butter-monopoly/ http://godfatherpolitics.com/2629/norway-has-a-shortage-of-butter/ There you go. Ironically, the Norwegian Government actually saw this coming and attempted to break up Tine in 2004 and encourage Tine to form into several smaller companies to compete with one another to ensure dairy production stays strong. They were denied due to free market rhetoric. Which would have been fine, but there was also huge amounts of socialist rhetoric in the same field. So it's a huge mess. The tricky thing is it that Norway has a socialist endorsed free market. The two don't mix at all - and you get situations like this, where a private company emerges and has a monopoly and no one can do anything. In an ideal free market world this wouldn't happen. In an ideal socialist world this wouldn't happen either. Give us all a break and stop simplifying everything down to fit into your agenda. Every single thread you make is a deliberate attempt to devalue government and glorify your libertarianism. The reality is that all these issues are more complicated than you make them out to be. Anyone who disagrees with you is automatically wrong and are therefore in favour of hurting "peaceful" people. It's getting tiresome dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saffire Posted December 27, 2011 Author Share Posted December 27, 2011 Kiame: *sigh*, that felt good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reilly Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 Where was everyone like this, when Saffire said that betting on your own auction to make others bet more, is perfectly legit? Saffire try this site: http://www.quibids.com/landing/index.php?c=uk&mb=gs&lp=50&sub= It's right up your alley, and a direct result of your line of thought. And Ipads for 90 cents! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saffire Posted December 27, 2011 Author Share Posted December 27, 2011 Sorry about that last post, had to get that out of the way! lol Zombieland would have quite easily flown past the 100 million mark if it were not for piracy. Evidence? It turns out, for a sequel to be granted, the publisher (Sony) wanted the film to make at least 100 million. It made about 90. So they "only" tripled their investment, and Sony refused to make a sequel based on that? According to the Wikipedia page for the movie, there will be a sequel and they're planning on it. They're even thinking about a TV series based on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombieland Soooo yeah, your argument here (and your example) doesn't hold water. If even one half of the downloaders would have instead saw the movie in theaters or purchased it, Zombieland's profit would have been near 250 million. And that's only with one half. You're assuming the movie is worth that much (meaning the people would have voluntarily traded their money to see it in theaters rather than downloading it). You can spin it either way, but piracy loses corporations millions of dollars a year. Not according to the Swiss government, which recently legalized piracy there: http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/permalink/2011/111204switzerland?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+digitalmusicnews+%28Digital+Music+News%3A+Top+Stories%29&utm_content=Google+Reader The basic concept behind smuggling's illegality is the fact that the government has to protect their own interests and their own developers from outside sources that may be able to undercut them. Why is offering customers a product they want at a lower price a bad thing? You've yet to explain the ethics/economics of this. It's simply a form of protection that ensures they can track the goods coming in and out of their country and are able to protect their own manufacturers. But what about consumers? Why are you siding with certain producers here? That sounds corporatist. A few people on here have expressed annoyance over your ability to try to spin absolutely everything to fit your own view point. Well let me go on record that I'm annoyed with your propensity to do the same. I think you're a warmongering corporatist socialist who doesn't believe in individual sovereignty or self-determination. :) I don't know if you have been following the news or not, but it seems the butter shortage has been caused by Tine's ( a private company) stranglehold on the industry. They have created a monopoly. How'd they manage to do that? The real problem is that there are pieces of legislation that make it very hard for anyone to compete. So is the root of the problem the government? It sounds like you're agreeing with me. Ironically, the Norwegian Government actually saw this coming and attempted to break up Tine in 2004 and encourage Tine to form into several smaller companies to compete with one another to ensure dairy production stays strong. Are you sure that's the real reason? Or was that merely their stated goal? Why are you assuming the government is selfless here? Sounds fishy. They were denied due to free market rhetoric. Which would have been fine, but there was also huge amounts of socialist rhetoric in the same field. So it's a huge mess. So basically you're saying nothing of substance here. Give us all a break and stop simplifying everything down to fit into your agenda. Every single thread you make is a deliberate attempt to devalue government and glorify your libertarianism. The reality is that all these issues are more complicated than you make them out to be. I disagree. I pointed out early in this thread that the issue came down to government, and you agreed with me! I happen to think your positions are simplistic - that the government is going to act selflessly, that it can print/steal money and use that for the purposes of helping the poor, etc. It's sort of 4th grade. No offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck kottke Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 I believe government is the final arbiter of fair play, and we need to again make it so. And to do so it cannot serve the interests of a powerful minority who invert the rules to serve themselves at the expense of all others, and it cannot ignore the rights of individuals who work hard to produce something and deserve protection for the fruits of their labors. It must work for all citizens, and to do so elections must be made fair, the selection of office seekers and the available information on them fair. For only when those elected to office are beholden to the citizens writ large, will they serve the citizens and uphold the common moral principles we hold dear, and promote the best of human nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiame Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 . I think you're a warmongering corporatist socialist who doesn't believe in individual sovereignty or self-determination. :) hahahahahahahaa I am never taking you seriously again. War mongering? Really? Hhahahahahah.\ Because I think piracy and smuggling are bad and you disagree with me, that makes me a war mongering socialist who loves corporations? Hahahaha. Oh, and I hate self determination? Just the other week I made this post in regard to the EU: Get out, and get out fast. The European Union is a bloated, corrupt shell of a "government". The majority of these bastards aren't elected, aren't known and still insist on making decisions that effect everyone. I am disgusted in my country and I am disgusted in the Union. The right to decide how we are governed is a fundamental right, and without it democracy doesn't exist. I really MUST hate self determination. lolque. Nice talking with you. I'm off to start a war somewhere and be a socialist who is also a corporatist because that totally makes sense. Seya! hahahahhahahaaha. I believe government is the final arbiter of fair play, and we need to again make it so. And to do so it cannot serve the interests of a powerful minority who invert the rules to serve themselves at the expense of all others, and it cannot ignore the rights of individuals who work hard to produce something and deserve protection for the fruits of their labors. It must work for all citizens, and to do so elections must be made fair, the selection of office seekers and the available information on them fair. For only when those elected to office are beholden to the citizens writ large, will they serve the citizens and uphold the common moral principles we hold dear, and promote the best of human nature. Woah Chuck! You are in favour of government? Then you are automatically wrong. You are a war mongering socialist corporatist who loves to attack peaceful people.... :P Better get out of this thread before the resident lunatic finds out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck kottke Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 Woah Chuck! You are in favour of government? Then you are automatically wrong. You are a war mongering socialist corporatist who loves to attack peaceful people.... :P Better get out of this thread before the resident lunatic finds out. That's not true. :angry: I'm a Communist! :P Peace Comrade. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiame Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 That's not true. :angry: I'm a Communist! :P Peace Comrade. ;) Я предпочитаю насилия, товарищ. Я также хотел войны. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saffire Posted December 27, 2011 Author Share Posted December 27, 2011 Aww, whassamatter? Can't reply to any of my points/links? If you can't take it, don't dish it out. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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