This guy changed my life

[Reilly]

The only force for positive social progression in my country and so many other places comes from religion. People in my religion have been executed for campaigning for feminism and other social issues.

 

My temple back home is one of the only accepting places of homosexuals and domestic abuse victims in the area. Our faith in God allows so many of us to continue to campaign for equality without fear of consequence from the controlling, evil government because we know we are doing God's work and we know we are encouraging peace. Objective peace that is. We work in favour of everyone deserves the right to live openly and happily.

 

To say so confidently that religion is destructive to social issues is horrible because its not true at all. Things are far deeper than they may seem. It doesn't matter if religion is present or not - a bad environment will produce evil rhetoric. Look at the Soviets. Complete atheists and arguably more evil than the Nazis.

 

Homosexuality has been persecuted for thousands of years in the majority of cultures. Why? Because it's different. Human beings fear difference. Being a red head in Scotland is a hell of a lot better than being a red head in Zimbabwe. Females have been persecuted for thousands of years in the majority of cultures. Why? Because they were under the thumb and powerless. Human beings in positions of authority like to keep the powerless powerless and the powerful powerful, and they will justify it with whatever is closest to them. Usually that is religious rhetoric. Sometimes it's political. Sometimes it's just bat shit insane and is a non sequitur.

 

The route of all these problems lie in basic human emotion and basic human faults. Religion may be used to justify it sometimes - but the real reason is far more complicated than "Oh he is religious so he hates fags". Good people will do good things with our without religion and bad people will do bad things.

 

Christianity and Islam contain more than a billion people each. That is over a billion individuals - each with their own thoughts and opinions. The overwhelming majority of them are good people. They do not run around trying to push discrimination onto others. They do not run around spreading hatred. A small few do and pseudo-intellectuals in the USA who believe they are trendy little scientists start saying stupid things like "Religion is totally evil man" and "I'm way too logical to believe in religion" and act like they are better people than those "stupid" Muslims or Christians.

 

If you want to discuss this issue - discuss the specific sect of Christianity that your little friend prescribes to. Don't use blanket terms. One religion can hold literally entirely opposite views to another. Even the same religion can have entirely different view points. "Religion" is probably one of the most vague words in the English language because it can hold literally opposite meanings depending on who you ask and what religion you're talking about. To take such a vague concept and imply that it's "destructive" is illogical. If you want to talk about destructiveness, you need to be far more specific.

 

There are a lot of good religious people in the world fighting for this cause and many of them are doing a hell of a lot more than you or anyone else on this forum is. Some of them are even dying for it. Every time you act like religion is solely to blame, whether you meant to imply it or not, you do them all a disservice.

 

I'm going to be honest and say I briefed this because I think I got the idea straight away.

 

The point is that humans evolved a moral sense without religion, and are capable of carrying out this morality without the need or fear of God, so to me all I can see is negativity, persecution. Perhaps some feel that it's unfair, that when I view a positive contribution to society from the form of a religion I simply see a bunch of people who happen to support the same God and are motivated by their philanthropy instead of their devotion to God, but that is what I see.

[Coeurli]

It's frustrating that I did acknowledge that very point and I have to repeat myself. I get the idea, the willpower, the strength to carry on, etc etc, but the depressing side of it for me is that he's gone through all of this for nothing, not just that he's gone through it, but it was a total waste of time, and he's an absolute moron for never questioning his belief which stands directly against his sexuality. You would think someone with a bit of sense would realise that if homosexuality exists, then maybe, just maybe their religion is wrong.

 

I couldn't make it more clear.

 

I couldn't disagree more with you. 2 reasons:

 

1. I don't get it when you say it's a waste of time, he's gone through all this for nothing : how do you know that ? Do you know what's gonna happen to him ? I mean can you see his future ? Can you tell me that his life is going to be miserable ? Or do you believe that he's been through everything just in the purpose of something better after death ? Well maybe he's just an incredible good & devoted person, who just want to make the world a better place. And what do you call a waste of time exactly ? His devotion to the society ? His love ? Maybe only seeing other people happy, or just a little less sad, and helping them, is what makes him happy, what's fulfilling in his life.

 

2. His religion isn't just about being against homosexuals. Your "argument" would be valuable if it was the case. But it's not. It would have been easier if it was just about that, and then all the people of his religion would hate gay people. But it's not the reality. His religion is also about love, about believing in God and so on. And that's why he's torn: he believes in everything his religion taught him, except one thing, one thing that he is, and has to live with.

 

So I suggest you take back what you called him. He's not a moron, he's one of the most courageous man ever.

 

You know he deserves respect (is that what you meant when you said he went through everything for nothing ?). So respect him.

[the_gloaming09]

I haven't had the chance to read the whole thread but I got to read the first post.

 

My take on the story is that of course it sucks for him because of how much rejection and hatred has been aimed towards him. It's definitely not right that someone should go through that kind of intimidation and hatred. So for his story I have sympathy I guess.

 

At the same time I find it to be extremely weird and also kind of stupid on his part. I mean we know how much homosexual persecution is constantly seen within the religious community. To me it doesn't make any sense as to why he would continue to be a pastor and still go through all of that. It's not his sexuality that is wrong, it's peoples thoughts on it that have been brought on by religion.

 

And it is religion that's brought it on. If you think about it from a completely objective standpoint why should it matter what gender someone is attracted to? Is it honestly doing any physical harm? And also if people say it is an unnatural thing then why is it that animals in nature are homosexual as well? Is it just a coincidence?

 

So to me I don't understand why he would continue to be part of a group that is against him. Even if it's because of what he believes, then be spiritual or something.

[Coeurli]

Ok, people, it's not because you don't get faith that you can call him stupid.

Like everything in life, it doesn't bring just good things, it comes with good & bad things. He deals with the extremely good and the extremely bad that comes with faith.

[Reilly]

I couldn't disagree more with you. 2 reasons:

 

1. I don't get it when you say it's a waste of time, he's gone through all this for nothing : how do you know that ? Do you know what's gonna happen to him ? I mean can you see his future ? Can you tell me that his life is going to be miserable ? Or do you believe that he's been through everything just in the purpose of something better after death ? Well maybe he's just an incredible good & devoted person, who just want to make the world a better place. And what do you call a waste of time exactly ? His devotion to the society ? His love ? Maybe only seeing other people happy, or just a little less sad, and helping them, is what makes him happy, what's fulfilling in his life.

 

2. His religion isn't just about being against homosexuals. Your "argument" would be valuable if it was the case. But it's not. It would have been easier if it was just about that, and then all the people of his religion would hate gay people. But it's not the reality. His religion is also about love, about believing in God and so on. And that's why he's torn: he believes in everything his religion taught him, except one thing, one thing that he is, and has to live with.

 

So I suggest you take back what you called him. He's not a moron, he's one of the most courageous man ever.

 

You know he deserves respect (is that what you meant when you said he went through everything for nothing ?). So respect him.

 

1. Oh, How do I know that? Could you try not asking 20 fucking questions, the rhetoric is making my head spin. Don't twist my words, why the hell would I suggest that his devotion to society etc. is a waste of time? You barely deserve a response.

 

Clearly (As if this needs to be spelled out to you) I meant his devotion to a religious belief that has persecuted him his entire life is a waste of time, I didn't mean his contribution to society, I meant it's been a waste of time believing in something that to me is not real, and has brought nothing back to him. I can't see his future, and neither can you, and thanks for making it a hypothetical situation in which case nobody is correct. Well done.

 

2. Don't call it a valueless "argument", it's like anyone can't string 2 words together on here without someone getting personal (Which is why, you may have noticed, I am now getting personal). Would you argue that hate machine cults and movements which are mainly about community, family, love, but have a background of hating other religions/nationalities/sexualities, can you be a part of one of those and still be morally fine? Is there a certain balance of evil and love a religion has to adhere to, to make it OK? Your logic is screwed and makes no sense.

 

If I was to believe in something with such strong faith as to trust my life on it, I'd want it to be 100%. Now assuming he is Christian, yes it is mainly based on love and hope, what does Christianity disagree with? Well, there's other Gods, which is a given, the superiority of women is a debatable one, oh and also homosexuals. There isn't a long list, and the one thing he disagrees with he happens to be on it. He could have achieved just as much in his life without his faith in "God" and a religion created around that God which is apparently homophobic (Of course this is all a man made creation so who the fuck knows what his religion is against).

 

I won't take it back, you've admitted that his religion is against his sexuality, in the same way that a politician supports his party which may have part of a manifesto that he strongly disagrees with and is a huge issue for them, it's perfectly reasonable to suggest they may have to look at leaving that party. I don't understand why that's so warped for you.

[the_gloaming09]

In the same way that a politician supports his party which may have part of a manifesto that he strongly disagrees with and is a huge issue for them, it's perfectly reasonable to suggest they may have to look at leaving that party. I don't understand why that's so warped for you.

 

I agree. I think that's a good analogy.

[Coeurli]

First Reilly thank you for spelling out what you meant.

 

Then you would expect this to be personal from the beginning, because religion is personal.

 

You can call it a waste of time, but you can't say that without clearly saying that it's only your opinion, and that there can be others (because it's a sensitive subject). I respect that you're not a religious person, I respect that you don't have faith in that kind of things. I just expect you to respect people who are religious and who have faith in that kind of stuff, and so not calling them morons. That's why I meant.

 

I shouldn't have referred to "arguments", because in this discussion, there can't be any real arguments, because it's a matter of opinions, believes, something that you can't justify. You may justify your point by a great logic, and I won't be able to justify mine by the same logic as yours, so you'll never get my point of view, but it doesn't mean that my point of view is stupid.

[Brent]

UGH U GUIZ Y :angry:

 

At first I didn't feel like I needed to intervene but now I do :angry:

 

1. Religion isn't bad in itself. What's so bad about believing that there's something more to life than pure science ? ( I exaggerate it, but you know what I mean)

 

You missed the point kinda, but I appreciate the input, and I know you were tired, so here's a waffle :waffle:

 

all religions are sects dictated by men. it's been the love and tolerance has been banned in religions. simply because of all the world says the name of God.

people put in the place of God. it's already bad.

they just need an example of all religions are racist. for example. some religions refuse the marriage because not the same religion.

 

the first commandment not respected.

 

You're weird, Lory, but I like you.

 

Too much religious sympathy in this thread. It would take me far too long to untangle.

This will be the most depressing thread in the lounge this year.

 

Agreed on the depression, but it's not fair NOT to have religious sympathy. TO be honest, EVERYONE, including you, has a religion. Atheism counts, agnosticism counts. It's a set of beliefs on a power, whatever that belief is. Therefore, by definition, your post is oxymoronic.

 

However, that's a cheap shot, I know. While I'm not religious in the least bit, really, I think that religion does a lot of good. Like Kiame said, Christians are wholly good people: They're just smacked with a label because it's easier to quantify people because of said label on something that defines them.

 

The benefits of churches outweigh the cons. They do a ton of charity work. It provides an outlet for people to become good: So what if this "God" is fictional? It's done a lot of good, as a social network, as a moral epicenter, and as a rehab-like presence. I think without modern religion we would be worse off, assuming ancient religion also existed.

 

It's frustrating that I did acknowledge that very point and I have to repeat myself. I get the idea, the willpower, the strength to carry on, etc etc, but the depressing side of it for me is that he's gone through all of this for nothing, not just that he's gone through it, but it was a total waste of time, and he's an absolute moron for never questioning his belief which stands directly against his sexuality. You would think someone with a bit of sense would realise that if homosexuality exists, then maybe, just maybe their religion is wrong.

 

I couldn't make it more clear.

 

I know, I know, and I got that point, so sorry to make you repeat it. I just can't help but be an optimist here. Maybe I am actually an optimist or maybe I just want this guy to find the spiritual nirvana he consistently struggles to inch toward.

 

Ok, people, it's not because you don't get faith that you can call him stupid.

Like everything in life, it doesn't bring just good things, it comes with good & bad things. He deals with the extremely good and the extremely bad that comes with faith.

 

You missed the point again. He shouldn't have to deal with the "extremely bad" because it shouldn't HAVE to come from faith. And religion is voluntary. So why not dismiss it?. That's not the point of religion. If it is: Why are YOU religious? If anything "extremely bad" comes from religion: Fuck that. Not worth it.

 

THAT's what people are saying here. He elects to place himself in a position to be ridiculed.

 

I really do believe that religion, whether true or not, is a good thing on a personal level (not necessarily a global scale...but that's not the discussion). And you are correct in saying that people shouldn't attack it for not believing it. Religious people could use the same fallacy.

 

 

_

 

Keep in mind, people, that the man is happy, truly. I can tell. He realizes that he's in a shitty situation. I don't think it's fair to attack his religion because there are a ton of worse people who are more religious. Religion, as a whole, has improved this guy's life. I know that he's super depressing or whatever, but he radiates optimism.

 

This is why I found him inspirational. I think that it the reason for my posting the story (though I kind of knew it would turn into this). That's why I repeated myself under Reilly's post.

[Brent]

I shouldn't have referred to "arguments", because in this discussion, there can't be any real arguments, because it's a matter of opinions, believes, something that you can't justify. You may justify your point by a great logic, and I won't be able to justify mine by the same logic as yours, so you'll never get my point of view, but it doesn't mean that my point of view is stupid.

 

Ehhhh....there's some pretty good arguments against religion. But that's not what the thread is about.

 

And with that I'm getting off the computer.

 

:escaping:

[Reilly]

You missed the point again. He shouldn't have to deal with the "extremely bad" because it shouldn't HAVE to come from faith. And religion is voluntary. So why not dismiss it?. That's not the point of religion. If it is: Why are YOU religious? If anything "extremely bad" comes from religion: Fuck that. Not worth it.

 

THAT's what people are saying here. He elects to place himself in a position to be ridiculed.

 

Yes, yes, yes. Beeeeautiful.

[Coeurli]

OK, now I get your point, people.

 

Still, you can't call him a moron, because he's happy. If he was depressed or pessimistic, alright, that would be weird of him to stay in this religion. But he's not, which means there's obviously something more in his life than what he's been through : that's why he's not a moron.

 

 

I know that he's super depressing or whatever, but he radiates optimism.

 

This is why I found him inspirational. I think that it the reason for my posting the story (though I kind of knew it would turn into this). That's why I repeated myself under Reilly's post.

 

:nod:

[LoryABjerre]

 

You're weird, Lory, but I like you.

 

 

me too I like you too and respect yours opinions :)

 

you know how many people do not agree and do not listen. because the only thing that matters is the perfection of the society on superficial and material want all the people and full of money. but then no love no tolerance. the world would not have had as many problems of economies and poverty. and among the peoples and equality between nations restored.

it's great to know there are still people who have empathy for people to become better and accomplish so much more.

[Coeurli]

^:nod: :)

[Spider-Man]

wow...what a story...I hope he's doing fine now.

 

hmm..was listening to Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own-U2 while reading this..

[lili_pt]

I just read the whole thread and whether you believe in god or not this thread has turned pretty interesting so thanks to all contributions. If anyone is interested in my point of view I agree with everyone who is saying that is pretty strange he stays religious after all the hate he has endured. I really don't get this blind faith. But then again people with faith would say that faith it is not to be understood, is to be felt. As I am a pretty rational person I can't get that.

 

 

The shit that he's had to wade through, to make it where he is (which arguably isn't that great), is hella depressing. He essentially failed at life's constant battle to be oneself. Which totally sucks: Because in the end, isn't that all anyone really wants?

 

I loved this sentence :).

[Prince Myshkin]

I really can't wait for people to realise that faith is not a virtue.

 

I'm still shocked at the suggestion that:

 

You're probably right in guessing that most Christians believe gay people go to hell when they die. But I don't think you're right about saying that belief is "destructive".

 

I can't believe that people let this slide. How can it not be destructive when it's part of the make up of the biggest completely man made threat to humans. Part of the fear, part of the sexual control, part of the discrimination. This whole thread is here because the guy was persecuted because of who he found sexually attractive. You can say that not everybody reacts in the way the people did who burnt down his house. That is a fair statement (though around the world there is a LOT who would). The thing is though, there are a considerable amount of parents of strong religious backings who would disown their children if they were homosexual. That is destructive. Then you have those who never come out as gay for fear of the repercussions and are constantly tormented, convincing themselves that they are evil. How is that not destructive? That changes a persons whole life. The main joy of life (in my personal opinion and I'm quite sure most others), love, and you are not allowed to feel it. Sometimes you might be part of a religion a major religion a little more tolerable, or come from a progressive society where the religion has been tweaked as much as possible, but even then the likelihood is you can't act out on that love and share it in an intimate way.

 

It's fucking disgusting.

 

It is putting your sexuality ahead of another groups. It is saying that you are right and they are wrong, but not only that, that they are evil. And what's more, people are born into that who are then torturing themselves because they have nobody to turn to and believe that they are evil or are disgusting because of their love.

[Prince Myshkin]

OK, now I get your point, people.

 

Still, you can't call him a moron, because he's happy. If he was depressed or pessimistic, alright, that would be weird of him to stay in this religion. But he's not, which means there's obviously something more in his life than what he's been through : that's why he's not a moron.

 

 

 

:nod:

 

I don't think he's a moron. But simply being being happy does not mean you are not a moron.

[Kiame]

I really can't wait for people to realise that faith is not a virtue.

 

I'm still shocked at the suggestion that:

 

 

 

I can't believe that people let this slide. How can it not be destructive when it's part of the make up of the biggest completely man made threat to humans. Part of the fear, part of the sexual control, part of the discrimination. This whole thread is here because the guy was persecuted because of who he found sexually attractive. You can say that not everybody reacts in the way the people did who burnt down his house. That is a fair statement (though around the world there is a LOT who would). The thing is though, there are a considerable amount of parents of strong religious backings who would disown their children if they were homosexual. That is destructive. Then you have those who never come out as gay for fear of the repercussions and are constantly tormented, convincing themselves that they are evil. How is that not destructive? That changes a persons whole life. The main joy of life (in my personal opinion and I'm quite sure most others), love, and you are not allowed to feel it. Sometimes you might be part of a religion a major religion a little more tolerable, or come from a progressive society where the religion has been tweaked as much as possible, but even then the likelihood is you can't act out on that love and share it in an intimate way.

 

It's fucking disgusting.

 

It is putting your sexuality ahead of another groups. It is saying that you are right and they are wrong, but not only that, that they are evil. And what's more, people are born into that who are then torturing themselves because they have nobody to turn to and believe that they are evil or are disgusting because of their love.

 

You seem more eager to take a place on a stage somewhere and to have a rant than actually engage in discussion.

 

No where did I say that being disowned isn't destructive. I was expressing the importance of freedom of belief and explaining how it's impossible to be concerned with what others think. You can't stop someone from thinking anything and trying to do so is a breach in their rights as an individual. Jumping around telling people what they can and can't believe only entrenches their mind in the belief they have to begin with. So it's pointless.

 

Flinging abusive tirades at a Christian who has never done one speck of evil in his life towards a gay man is not okay and it's actually counter productive to everyone's goal of equality. He is allowed to view homosexuality however he wishes to view it - and unless he has disenfranchised, attacked or discriminated against someone you can't say anything against him without sounding like the thought police.

 

That's the point I was making. I think you need to calm down. I'm on your side here.

[Prince Myshkin]

That's all I was concerned about :).

 

 

 

I have tiny problem with this part as well.

 

You're probably right in guessing that most Christians believe gay people go to hell when they die. But I don't think you're right about saying that belief is "destructive".

 

Unless they are actively going out of there way to deny rights to homosexuals (which I don't believe even a quarter of Christians in the USA are) it's meaningless and there is nothing you can do about it. All you can say is you disagree.

 

I know a lot of Christians who believe homosexuals go to hell and most of them are, strangely enough, incredibly nice and caring when they meet a homosexual. When I ask them about this, they say that they simply see homosexuals the same way they see people who have sex outside of marriage. They think they are sinners, but they don't hate them and they don't wish any harm on them.

 

Is it strange to think that way? Probably. But I don't have a problem with it because I'm not interested in trying to outlaw thoughts or opinions. I'm not going to lock a man up for wanting to kill someone. I'm only going to lock him up if he tries to act on it. Otherwise you are promoting thought police.

 

So I only care about homophobic Christian believes when they are picketing homosexuals funerals or trying to deny them basic civil rights. And I'm very confident in saying most Christians don't do anything like that and nor do they have any interest in doing so. And yes, as much as I disagree with them, I believe they have the right to believe whatever they want about whoever they want.

 

Why am I bringing this up? Because I believe that gay rights advocates are attacking religion in the wrong way. They are bringing up things like what you just said - and all that does is hurt their case because they seem like condescending smug douche bags who are trying to regulate people's thoughts. They ironically stereotype religious people, they spread myths and they act like any religious opinion on their sexuality is WRONG WRONG WRONG! And that's, in my opinion, a huge part of the reason why the gay rights movements across the Western world in the last few years haven't changed much. They're going about it in the wrong way and I know gay people who dislike it as much as I do.

 

 

 

 

Oh hi buddy.

 

THE most ridiculous post of the thread. Of the board even.

 

1. Controlling peoples thoughts and you don't mention religion? People who are forced to believe that homosexuals go to hell. Fair enough if you believe it, but forcing and bringing up children to believe it, who may themselves be homosexual is an awful thing.

 

2. Of course not every Christian is bad. The majority are not. Look at what they support though.

 

3. Do you believe that homosexuals go to hell? Or that what they do is wrong?

 

4. Nice attack on homosexual activists. The gay rights movement is still changing rapidly. One of the main thing that holds them back IS religion, so why not tackle the odious problem that religion creates?

 

5. I'm all for racist people and homophobic people being allowed to share their beliefs. I'm not going to tell them that they are not allowed to think it. They are not allowed to spread hate though. And when they use their engines of grief to indoctrinate others into the spread of that hate which holds back civilisation as a hold, just like sexism does all over the world, is it wrong trying to educate those who hide behind the safety net of bullshit faith? You expect them not to be the slightest bit outspoken after all of the persecution? Who have homosexuals ever persecuted as a whole? They have not got together and targeted groups of people. Why should they be targeted when they don't spread hurt in their essence. Religion does spread hurt though. Many of them have calmed down a considerable amount but that does not excuse the past and it does not excuse their new subtle attempts of indoctrinating children against things that they should embrace and educate themselves about.

[Prince Myshkin]

You seem more eager to take a place on a stage somewhere and to have a rant than actually engage in discussion.

 

No where did I say that being disowned isn't destructive. I was expressing the importance of freedom of belief and explaining how it's impossible to be concerned with what others think. You can't stop someone from thinking anything and trying to do so is a breach in their rights as an individual. Jumping around telling people what they can and can't believe only entrenches their mind in the belief they have to begin with. So it's pointless.

 

Flinging abusive tirades at a Christian who has never done one speck of evil in his life towards a gay man is not okay and it's actually counter productive to everyone's goal of equality. He is allowed to view homosexuality however he wishes to view it - and unless he has disenfranchised, attacked or discriminated against someone you can't say anything against him without sounding like the thought police.

 

That's the point I was making. I think you need to calm down. I'm on your side here.

 

You are entitled to think what you want about homosexuality, I just don't understand supporting children being indoctrinated into thinking homosexuality is wrong. Many only believe it because it is forced on them and if they had had their own freedom of thought they may have seen logic. They may have come to the same conclusions though. The point being, they weren't given a fair chance.

 

How can you not see that it is religion that tells people what to think? No wonder other people become more forceful in their arguments when they come up against such stupidity. You have the nerve to call others fighting persecution smug?

[Prince Myshkin]

I'm on your side here.

 

You really are not.

[Kiame]

THE most ridiculous post of the thread. Of the board even.

 

1. Controlling peoples thoughts and you don't mention religion? People who are forced to believe that homosexuals go to hell. Fair enough if you believe it, but forcing and bringing up children to believe it, who may themselves be homosexual is an awful thing.

 

People are free to believe what they want to believe. Just because someone may believe something religiously based doesn't mean they have had that view point forced on them. I don't support pushing morals onto children. I never said I did support that. In my religion that is a very bad thing to do and children are encouraged to reach their own decisions.

 

If there is any suspicion of a child being force fed some of our values, our temple staff look into it and have a very stern chat to the parents about why it is not a good thing.

 

I cannot speak for other religions. I don't know what they do and unless you've had sufficient experience in the day to day workings of them you have no idea either.

 

Calm down.

 

2. Of course not every Christian is bad. The majority are not. Look at what they support though.

 

What do you mean look what they support? Christianity is enormously huge and has all different belief structures. Unitarians don't even believe in hell and they are a huge Christian sect.

 

I'm not going to engage in you with discussion if you keep generalising everybody. Most of my Christian friends do not believe homosexuality is a sin at all, and we've had Christians in this very thread explaining that they do not see anything wrong with homosexuality.

 

If you want to discuss an issue, talk specifics. If you don't know enough to talk specifics, don't discuss the issue.

 

3. Do you believe that homosexuals go to hell? Or that what they do is wrong?.

 

No. Like I said earlier (which I see you haven't read) people from my temple are the only group of people campaigning for gay rights in my home town. I've seen my sister be arrested for her sexuality. I'm frequently involved in outreach problems that provide shelter to homosexuals and I do a lot of work and risk a lot to help because I've seen first hand of what oppressive religious groups can do and I can assure you I've seen and done a hell of a lot on the matter. I have two gay siblings and I have fought tooth and nail to make sure they are respected as human beings. I've been arrested for doing so.

 

You don't know anything about me and you don't know anything about what I believe. Stop implying that I'm attacking homosexual activists - because I'm one of them. Stop implying that I hate gay people. Stop implying that I'm doing anything harmful whatsoever. Stop implying like I'm rallying behind hate.

 

I have no desire to talk to you any further on the matter.

[Prince Myshkin]

Nor do I.

[Reilly]

I really think people are missing the point of the thread, its not about how this man's will power and determination has seen him through tough times that many people wouldn't have the strength to carry on through, it's about whether his religion is correct or not.

[Coeurli]

^:lol: