[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5an-OZwq_M]Mursi Ousted as Egypt's President; Constitution Suspended - YouTube[/ame]

 

Egypt: President Morsi ousted by military coup backed by mass protests

 

In Tahrir Square in Cairo, the news was met with the same jubilation that met the toppling of dictator Hosni Mubarak two years ago

 

A military coup backed by a huge uprising of public anger has toppled Egypt’s first elected president. President Morsi was reported tonight to be ‘under the protection’ of the Republican Guard as armoured vehicles moved from their barracks onto the streets of Cairo near to a demonstration in support of the Muslim Brotherhood leader at Rabaa al Adawiya.

 

A few miles away in Tahrir Square the news was met with the same jubilation that met the toppling of dictator Hosni Mubarak two years ago. More than 100,000 opponents of the government danced, cheered and let off fireworks. A jubilant Mohammed Sawa, 42, said: “This is not a coup. This is the military acting for the people. We have asked this and they have acted.”

 

Confusion reined over the whereabouts of Morsi, who won the Presidency a year ago in elections deemed fair by independent officials. A barracks next door to the Presidential Palace which served as Morsi’s office was circled with barbed wire.

 

Morsi aide Assam El-Haddad said he had lost contact with the President and then issued a dire warning. He said: “In this day and age, no military coup can succeed in the face of sizeable popular force without considerable bloodshed.

 

“There are still people in Egypt who believe in their right to make a democratic choice. "Hundreds of thousands of them have gathered in support of democracy and the presidency. And they will not leave in the face of this attack. To move them, there will have to be violence.”

 

The military had give Morsi 48 hours to resolve the political crisis in the country with a plan setting out fresh elections, the suspension of the new constitution and the dissolution of parliament. A night of violence which saw 23 dead and 200 injured in clashes between Mosri’s supporters and opponents, was followed a day of political confusion. As the 4pm deadline approached, the Egyptian military issued a stark warning. In a statement the army swore to “sacrifice even our blood for Egypt and its people, to defend them against any terrorist, radical or fool”.

 

As confusion and rumour swept the country, Egyptians waited for a televised statement from the military. The President, in a defiant TV address, refused to step down or negotiate putting him on a collision course with the army. Morsi, Egypt’s first freely elected president, pledged to protect his “constitutional legitimacy” with his life. His spokesman said: “It is better for a president, who would otherwise be returning Egypt to the days of dictatorship, from which God and the will of the people has saved us, to die standing like a tree rather than be condemned by history and future generations for throwing away the hopes of Egyptians for establishing a democratic life.”

 

After the 4pm deadline, soldiers were reported to have taken over the state television studios. Morsi’s opponents have accused him and his Muslim Brotherhood party of pushing Egypt towards an Islamic state. They complain about rising crime rise and accuse him of economic mismanagement, with the government forced to loan money from friendly Middle Eastern states.

 

Crowds began to mass in Tahrir Square, the home of the revolution that ousted the hated dictator Hosni Mubarak two years ago, to mark the end of the deadline. Tens of thousands of people, many with their faces adorned with their country’s flag, streamed in across every bridge and through every alleyway. After a series of rapes and sexual assaults on women within the square, organisers sealed off an area for women only so they too could join the protest without fear of attack.

 

There was humour too amidst the anger. One popular placard showed Morsi and his cabinet dressed in nappies, sucking on bottles. Christians, who have been subjected to increasing numbers of attacks, stood shoulder to shoulder with their countryman. Muslim Mahmout Samir, 27, said regardless of faith, the majority of people were untied against the increasingly hard-line Islamic government. He said: “The Government is for all people, Muslim and Christian. I am a Muslim but what they are doing is wrong.”

 

Retired army officer Samir Yousef, 65, clutching a cross in his arms, said: “We are all united here, Muslim and Christian. “Morsi needs to go, we need a moderate government here. He should step down for the good of the country.”

 

Two years ago the army stood by as the country rose against President Mubarak’s 30 year dictatorship, sealing the end of his regime. Back then, tanks were mobilised around Tahrir Square and the rest of the country yet did nothing. Now the army has stepped in to demand Morsi listen to his people. It is a move that doesn’t strike fear into the protesters.

 

Architect Samir el Shabib, 34, said: “The Army are of the people, they are there with us. "They have shown they do not want the Muslim Brotherhood in charge.”

 

As the military’s deadline approached the protest within the square grew with no Army or police to maintain order. A few miles away a far smaller demonstration by Muslim Brotherhood supporters demanded that the military respect last year’s elections and not launch a coup d’etat. One protestor said: “They are criminals. They have to respect the vote.”

 

Speakers at the demonstration spoke of laying down their lives for the President. As fears grew that chaos could descend to Egypt’s streets again, the Foreign Office advised against all but essential travel to the country except for resorts on the Red Sea in South Sinai. Prime Minister David Cameron in the Commons pleaded for an end to violence in Egypt. He said: “These are deeply disturbing scenes, the level of violence is appalling,” said the Prime Minister. “We should appeal to all sides to calm and stop the levels of violence, and particularly sexual assaults. “It is not for this country to support any single group or party. What we should support is proper democratic processes and proper government by consent.

 

“Very clear messages have been sent to president Morsi - including by president Obama who spoke to him directly, and we have also been communicating through our ambassadors - that, yes, he has a democratic mandate and we respect that, but democracy also means ensuring that everyone has a voice and that leaders have a responsibility to represent all Egyptians and show they are responsive to their concerns. That’s what the government needs to do in order to bring about peace and stability in that country.

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/egypt-president-morsi-ousted-military-2023360#ixzz2Y1BZAU7r

I want the people to win, I just hope that getting into bed with the military doesn't turn out to be worse.

I want the people to win, I just hope that getting into bed with the military doesn't turn out to be worse.

 

You mean just like the last time?

Last time, the military was run by a set of bosses who wouldn't let go of control and sided with Mubarak, so I wonder about who's behind what and for what reasons, though the threat of a majority trouncing the rights of a minority is why many governments provide for power sharing within their structures, and protections of basic rights are critical for all.

2Q: Does the Egyptian constitution protect people's basic human rights, and is it listened to as the founding document? Is there a good arrangement to ensure that minorities are part of the decision making process, and no one is shorted as a result of legislative decisions? It's up to the citizens of Egypt to decide, perhaps a civil gathering for a new, amended, or more carefully penned constitution would help...

Awfully convenient for the people to take the streets and have the military hit the giant reset button every time a "revolution" does not go their way.

 

What exactly stops them the next time from protesting and raping without impunity?

 

After all, it's worked twice now.

 

Happy independence day.

i really hope this works out for the Egyptian people

Awfully convenient for the people to take the streets and have the military hit the giant reset button every time a "revolution" does not go their way.

 

What exactly stops them the next time from protesting and raping without impunity?

 

After all, it's worked twice now.

 

Happy independence day.

 

I don't know a lot about what was going on. But if the people were unhappy with a corrupt government that was like the last, I support them stepping up and trying to fix it. With any revolution, you risk putting in power someone worse. That is the risk, but sometimes, rarely, it works out.

Awfully convenient for the people to take the streets and have the military hit the giant reset button every time a "revolution" does not go their way.

 

What exactly stops them the next time from protesting and raping without impunity?

 

After all, it's worked twice now.

 

Happy independence day.

 

So it's OK if a revolution doesn't go the way of the people?

So it's OK if a revolution doesn't go the way of the people?

 

The people spoke when they democratically elected the president literally just a year ago. These protestors are rejecting representative democracy, without having had much of a chance to participate in it. Protest in Egypt has become an end in itself—more satisfying than the hard work of governance, organizing, and negotiation. Moreover, Egypt’s opposition is neither particularly coherent nor interested in governing.

Ahh, so it's either lazy people or rapists.

And the people chose someone, that looks like was a bad choice. They have a right to fix a mistake, even if "they" democratically elected him. I'm curious to see how much of that election was America manipulating things.

At no point during the original protests did anyone, Egyptian or otherwise, say that Mubarak's influence would be eliminated by simply throwing him out of government, the people expected further completely comparable corruption to continue. That's what they got, there is little difference, little progress, and the removal of one person of authority should change their right to protest?

 

"Democracy" is so often used as a buzzword of convenience for people too lazy to really look into how a country is governed. For those it's like 'sure, they have democracy, what more could they want?'.

Ahh, so it's either lazy people or rapists.

 

It's so easy to reflexively side with revolutionaries isn't it?

 

And the people chose someone, that looks like was a bad choice. They have a right to fix a mistake, even if "they" democratically elected him. I'm curious to see how much of that election was America manipulating things.

 

Not so long ago Morsi had an +80% approval rating. You can't hit the streets and protest once things don't go well for you.

It's so easy to reflexively side with revolutionaries isn't it?

 

Oh god now you've just reminded me of Saffire. You can use that logic for anyone siding with anything.

 

It's 2013, revolutionaries and people supporting them can be viewed as 'sheeple' the exact same way that anyone can, and in ways that has existed for a long, long time. Great observation.

It's so easy to reflexively side with revolutionaries isn't it?

 

And vice versa.

 

You're in no better a position than the other side.

Oh god now you've just reminded me of Saffire. You can use that logic for anyone siding with anything.

 

Uh oh when I start being likened to my mortal enemy, things are not looking good for me... :(

 

 

I'm not so naive to suggest that of course meant everything was going to be peachy in Egypt post-Mubarak. Nor am I suggesting that the Egyptian people don't have a right to protest. What I am pointing out however is that these protestors are throwing out via force someone who was democratically elected a year ago. Literally one year! You cannot have democracy in Egypt in one year. You cannot even begin to solve the multitude of problems in one year.

 

Yet still they are protesting and having the military assert their power and throw out someone elected by the people. They are giving up on representative democracy in one year. If they were so unhappy with Morsi, why not vote him out of office instead? By some people's reactions, it seems as if you are suggesting that we should take to the streets in our own respective countries and throw out our leaders every single time things are not to our liking (actually shades of Occupy Wall Street… remember how that was supposed to be "the" revolution of the people?)

 

If that is indeed the case, then my apologies. At this point, we just have to agree to disagree.

 

Look - anyone who's ever taken a basic Poli Sci 101: Middle East can tell you some of the reasons for the failings in Egypt. Some might point at the stagnant education system and how it does not lend itself to social mobility. Others would point out the always-present clash between Islamism and secular liberalism, or perhaps the remnants of Nasserite nationalism and its failures. And the sad part is I haven't even begun to talk in depth about the issues in Egypt - and by extension, the Middle East - and the hoops it needs to jump through to achieve a true representative democracy (at the very least, getting into topics beyond a quick scan of Wikipedia as I suspect most of you think I just did).

 

Countries like Egypt need a critical mass of people with a vision of how to build a modern society. These protestors don't provide that vision, nor is it their intention - which is my big issue and the reason for my deep skepticism. It's easy to have these protests; it's even easier for your country to collapse because you don't have any ideas on how to right the ship per se (speaking of, fill up your cars now if you haven't done so already).

 

You want to protest? Fine. You want to have a better life and country? Who doesn't? But there's a difference between just wanting something and working towards a goal, a vision. These protests are not indicative of that vision. Whether communist and totalitarian as in Russia, China or Vietnam, democratic socialist as in India, nationalist and quasi-capitalist as in Ataturk’s Turkish Republic and Peron’s Argentina, or any of the other varieties of twentieth century developmentalist ideology, these big ideas and grand visions mobilized populations for the difficult work of transformation and uplift. The leaders of Egypt's opposition still cannot articulate their idea and vision, beyond getting rid of Morsi. Great, you got rid of the big, bad president. Now what? I just can't help but think back to the Algerian elections in 1991 and its aftermath - how can I not think this might be what is in store for Egypt? This is especially crucial for Egypt because of its role it plays in the Middle East.

 

I think I would have been ambivalent about the protests in Egypt if it weren't for the breadth of human rights abuses that are occurring... to their fellow protestors! The Human Rights Watch reports over 91 sexual attacks in 4 days. Three things about that: 1) Wow that's a large number (especially once you read the harrowing accounts of these women); 2) mind-blowing considering this is only the reported number of sexual assaults; 3) the perpetrators are getting away with these crimes with no fear of repercussion. Now these assaults are happening in the public square! Sure, it's unfair to condemn the actions of some and attribute it to the larger group but the fact that these attacks are happening in public (and still happening) puts me at great unease.

 

Why did I write so much about this topic? Well, today is the 4th of July aka Independence Day in America. One need only look at Egypt as the most recent example of how mind-blowingly improbable it is that a country hosting such a diverse, passionate populace has managed peaceful and (relatively) democratic transfers of power for so long. Our country has tons of problems - I'll be the first to admit that - but it's also extremely well-equipped to solve them. I wonder: how would America have turned out if the people rebelled and forced Washington out after 1 year on the job…?

 

 

 

tl;dr version: I just can't help but be skeptical about the revolution in Egypt (and Arab Spring by extension... remember how the news reporters were salivating about this? Where are they now?) Morsi inherited most of the economic mess and surely cannot have been expected to turn things around 180 degrees in one year. Moreover, I don't think the guise of a revolution excuses you of abusing fellow protestors. Finally, I hope to never be compared to Saffire again. I hope he's doing fine in Guantanamo - I would have loved to hear his thoughts on the recent NSA developments. :(

 

 

One thought experiment: The conservative Islamists who won post-Mubarak has been deposed by liberals who lost the elections and now many people support their actions. What would have happened if the tables were flipped and now the secular liberals were being thrown out of power by an unyielding Islamist mob? Are all actions justifiable if you have the "will of the people?"

Uh oh when I start being likened to my mortal enemy, things are not looking good for me... :(

 

I've always been on your side against Saffire but that siding with the revolutionaries comment kinda got me, when in defence he has the same logic. I'd also hate to be likened to him.

 

I will read everything else you've written of course, it always enlightens me, to the point where I don't have anything to respond to, so I do apologise for saying you're like Saffire generally.

It's so easy to reflexively side with revolutionaries isn't it?

 

 

 

Not so long ago Morsi had an +80% approval rating. You can't hit the streets and protest once things don't go well for you.

 

Hahaha every dictator has a high approval rating. Fake numbers don't matter.

Sadly, this is the result of using & manipulating religion to get to power & stay there.

The (rebel) campaign started by an idea few months ago, collecting the people signatures as a symbolic movement to call for early presidential elections. The demonstrations on 30 June also came as a simple idea that got underestimated by the regime. Everyone was afraid of this day, saying it would lead to civil war. Fears of protesting & getting killed or raped or assaulted were spread before the protests in order to scare ppl away. Plus provoking the people by saying that those who will protest are just some remains of the former regime or the disbelievers who are fighting against Islam.

 

I'm not going through much details because everything is confusing right now, but I hoped that the government would react prior to these demonstrations to diffuse such tension & offer solutions. After millions marched in the streets asking for (early presidential elections), there were no political compromises or offers from the government to solve that situation, instead the ruling party & its supporters called for opposing demonstrations on the streets too, as if calling for battles & bloodshed.

 

I hoped for many things, none have happened sadly. I am scared about the future & the Algerian example.

 

The original article says thousands, no they were millions, more than anyone has expected. It was unbelievable really. Much more than in 25 jan 2011.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Economist articulated far better than I could have of why these protests and demonstrations are not so good - for Egypt & the region:

 

The precedent that Mr Morsi’s ouster sets for other shaky democracies is a terrible one. It will encourage the disaffected to try to eject governments not by voting them out but by disrupting their rule. It will create an incentive for oppositions all over the Arab world to pursue their agendas on the streets, not in parliaments. It thus will reduce the chance of peace and prosperity across the region.

 

It also sends a dreadful message to Islamists everywhere. The conclusion they will draw from events in Egypt is that, if they win power in elections, their opponents will use non-democratic means to oust them. So if they are allowed to come to office, they will very likely do their damnedest to cement their power by fair means or foul. Crush your opponents could well be their motto.

 

What I was hinting at in my increasingly embarrassing post but that's why I don't write for the Economist.

 

The article in case you thought I was cherry-picking to advance my thoughts as my buddy Saffire liked to do: http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21580462-muhammad-morsi-was-incompetent-his-ouster-should-be-cause-regret-not-celebration-egypts

 

 

 

And in case you thought I was being overtly alarmist by raising the 1991 Algeria example, think again:

 

On Morning Edition, NPR Cairo bureau chief Leila Fadel spoke with Heba Morayef, director of the Middle East and North Africa division at Human Rights Watch. "Morayef says a coup is a dangerous precedent to set," Leila reported. "Some Brotherhood supporters have resorted to violence across the country. As have opponents to the Brotherhood. And the country remains dangerously polarized as the political elite on both sides demonize the other, she says. Opponents to the Brotherhood refer to them as terrorists. Men have been dragged by their beards on the side of the road on suspicion of being in the Brotherhood, Morayef says, fearing that now the military is joining in."

 

Arrest warrants have been issued for at least 300 Muslim Brotherhood leaders. Also on Morning Edition, NPR's Soraya Sarhaddi Nelson said the Egyptian military "has expressed great concern about keeping the peace and limiting the bloodshed" as Egyptians react to Wednesday's coup. "The fear is that if they don't ... go after these leaders, a resistance or a backlash will be organized."

 

But, Soraya added, Muslim Brotherhood members say the hunt for their members is a "return to the enmity of the past," when there was a crackdown on the Islamist group by the Mubarak regime.

 

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/07/04/198649675/egypt-begins-dangerous-new-phase-as-interim-leader-steps-in

 

 

 

Interesting things to think about on Independence Day in America.

 

More happier news... how about that Joey Chestnut? Wow 69 hot dogs! That's what freedom is all about.

Dear Western pundits, when the Muslim Brotherhood came to power a year ago, you were sceptical, many of you wrote about how the revolution has been suffocated. When protests broke out in November 22nd, and lasted a week and took a very violent twist, you shook your head in despair, about the state that democracy/revolution/a number of other things had descended into. When the brotherhood’s constitution was approved in a referendum where only 33% of the registered electorate took part and against the backdrop of violent protest: a constitution that institutionalises very blatant violations of basic rights and human dignity, that makes slave labour constitutional (details that you forget today, or probably never noticed in the first place) and that bizarrely has a specific definition of what a “constitutional Egypt citizen” is; you shook your head in despair, you made some comments about the grim prospects for democracy/revolution/a number of other things you seem concerned about. I told some friends back then that this won’t last for another year—it was quite obvious to us—but they shook their heads in disbelief. We were a “spent force”. Now that the authoritarian government of Morsi—(under Morsi’s rule, protesters were still being shot and tortured to death, the prosecution was much more vigilant in prosecuting protesters than they ever were under SCAF or even Mubarak) has been removed, by the unsavoury military institution that continues to be an arbiter of power, in response to popular protest, you shook your head in despair—this time because our first freely elected government was removed. And you remind us of how much time it takes to build democratic institutions. See the things is: democratic institutions don’t build themselves, and Morsi wasn’t building them that’s for sure. So I’m not entirely sure what you want exactly, if I try to make sense of all these contradictory positions, you seem to be suffering from an existential crisis—for losing a bit of your authority on theory of democracy, good governance, on the production of knowledge about how we should manage these things. We might not have progressed at all, but if there’s one thing that we should all learn from the Arab revolutions, it’s humility..

MrLick (and others), some guiding questions - and I certainly hope you respond to some of them, if not all:

 

1) Are all of the economic failings in Egypt - ranging from high unemployment rates, billions of dollars in debt, nearly exhausted foreign currency reserves - a direct result of Morsi's 1 year on the job? Or could they be stemming from the legacy of an authoritarian regime, bloated bureaucracy, costly and inefficient subsidy system and layer upon layer of corruption? If the latter, is it fair to blame on Morsi's government and have the military step in?

 

2) Is 1 year enough to suspend the first semblance of a representative democracy in your country?

 

3) How would you describe the stability of the current coalition of protestors? Do they have enough shared interests to set up a more stable government or were they simply united behind the idea of "overthrow Morsi"? If the latter, what can be done to ensure the needs of all parties are met without further revolutions down the line?

 

4) How would you articulate the protestors' vision for a new Egypt considering their own leaders have difficulty articulating them? How does the suspension of news networks in Egypt deemed pro-Morsi by the military affect the messaging of the revolution to its people?

 

5) A significant portion of the current coalition prefer the stability of military rule - if this turns out to be the will of the people, would you support such a move, even if it means rejecting the basic principles of the first revolution and possibly going back to a Mubarak-like government?

 

6) If the country does fall under military rule, how is it different than the last time it ruled during the transition from Mubarak to Morsi? Would we see similar abuse of power and human rights violations?

 

7) The current protestors are sending messages about unity and how the Muslim Brotherhood is welcome in building a new Egypt - and then goes on to order arrest of 300 of its officials. How does this undermine the message, if at all?

 

8) The Muslim Brotherhood has called for protests in the streets in support of Morsi and what they view as the legitimate government. Do they also have the right to take the streets and if they engage in destructive behavior, would you tolerate it considering you seemingly do for the current protestors?

 

9) How does the current situation in Egypt affect the 1979 Egypt-Israel peace treaty, especially considering there were fears about the future of the treaty during the Egyptian Revolution of 2011.

 

10) Did the actions of the current protestors set a dangerous precedent in the region? How does this affect the future of of democratically elected governments in the region? Can they too take the streets and protest if things are not to their liking or do they need to have some kind of rationale? How legitimate does your rationale have to be - is it purely dependent on how many supporters you have?

 

11) Considering the fragile Egyptian economy, how do you think the country would fare if the United States decides to suspend foreign aid to the country, especially since the country is heavily reliant on foreign aid? If foreign aid is suspended, how does that impact the protestors' attempts to rebuild a new government?

 

12) In the voting for the constitutional referendum, roughly 32% of the electorate voted - do you think perhaps more should have showed up to vote against Morsi instead of boycotting and taking to the streets?

 

13) Islamist extremists, in Egypt and elsewhere, may argue that what many are calling a military coup validates the use of violence to achieve their aims. Does that mean any political faction - if they drum up enough support - can take to the streets and demand a revolution? How does the protests again the Muslim Brotherhood affect future relations with Islamists when trying to set up a legitimate government considering military crackdowns have stolen their imminent democratic victories in the past (Egypt under Gamal Abdel Nasser in 1954; Algeria in 1991; and the Palestinian territories in 2006)?

 

14) Could this lead to a similar situation like what we see in Syria and if that is the case, how does the central role Egypt plays in the Middle East affect their economy in the short-term, and the global economy in the long-term?

 

15) There have always been fundamental divide in the Arab world over big issues such as the role of religion in government and the identity of the state - how would Egypt subvert what has been the norm?

 

16) Is democracy even possible in the region, considering that liberal democracy in Arab countries can really only be found in Tunisia? If not, what is the government you propose? If a government brings stability and prosperity to a country, does it matter what form it takes even if it's a military-run autocracy? Is the best-type of government always a representative democracy, even in its transitional phases?

 

17) I offered a thought experiment earlier but maybe you didn't get a chance to read: The conservative Islamists who won post-Mubarak has been deposed by liberals who lost the elections and now many people support their actions. What would have happened if the tables were flipped and now the secular liberals were being thrown out of power by an unyielding Islamist mob? Are all actions justifiable if you have the "will of the people?"

 

 

 

I ask all these questions not to fuel my own ego or be condescending - even if you might initially take it that way - but to gain a deeper understanding of opposing viewpoints and develop my own line of thinking. It's possible that you answer all my questions (kudos if you do!) and afterwards, we still hold on to our views. But at the very least, we'll both have a deeper understanding about the complexities of the issue and understand opposing viewpoints, even if we don't necessarily agree with them.

 

(Hopefully none of you are underage and you're both clothed, otherwise that gif could be misconstrued)

Oh boy this is going to turn into the Occupy Wall Street or SOPA thread isn't it?

 

What have I done? :facepalm:

 

On a related note, I'm actually impressed that 35% of the laughably long posts I wrote is somewhat coherent.

My stance has evolved somewhat so you can take credit for that. Apologies for my abruptness at the start of the thread.