Prince Myshkin

Buy her an elephant.

I'm glad it wasn't just me.

I'd have gone for this too. How wrong we both were.

I want Ronnie to win it too. Great to watch as a neutral and a personality. One of the few who has arrogance but I still like.

I guess I could have replied in a bit of a kinder tone, I'm just a little suspicious of people who enter a thread which has been talking about real issues, whilst not demeaning men and not demeaning feminism in other cultures and then proceeds to set out to play a devils advocate by taking those two points as the main gist. If you've read through the entire thread and see that as the only thing to add then I find it a bit weird and would question your motives.

You didn't say it, but it was pretty much implicit. It is indeed like the reverse racism argument in that you get privileged people complaining about hypocrisies (some of which aren't supported by those after equality, some of which are simply invented or incomparable to real problems - in your case with Gray and Keyes/Loose Women you have achieved both. As i have stated with the Loose Women show, it's shit but it doesn't come from genuine hate and a belief that men are inferior.) You also seem to be of the impression that people aren't doing anything to help those in other countries. Once again, just because something isn't being reported, doesn't mean it isn't happening. You also have to look at the fact that individual western women don't have the power to change feminism globally, topple dreadful regimes and free slaves worldwide, but they do have the power to change their own society. They also have a rightful expectation that they should keep pushing in order to achieve these aims. Does it not occur to you that this push is furthered by the more extreme feminists and that whilst not everyone agrees with them, they are integral to the cause? Without them, much less would be done and even if they fall short in some regards, their actions are necessary evil (they are of course not evil, this is simply a phrase) in the drive for equality? In all movements you need some bashing down the walls so the less extreme can see just exactly how far to go and how far is reasonable. There are extremes in all movements, but by condemning a few (and the panel of Loose Women was a strange target to pick) and thereby discrediting the movement as a whole, it just makes you look a bit silly. But as I said, we are living in a culture where much of these misogynistic norms are tolerated, so why is it such a surprise to see young women buying into it when it is promoted in such an accessible pop culture? These kind of ideas are being pushed by misogynists and non misogynists alike so it's no surprise to see the casual listener buy into a musical piece if they don't really interact with that art past listening to the sounds. I like Eminem's first couple of albums but I'm not homophobic. I like the vast vast majority of Beck's work, but I'm no Scientologist. In the great scheme of things, you seem to be doing plenty to avoid taking the side of the victim here. And you might say you're playing devils advocate, but you seem to be simply speaking your mind. This is fine, but don't pretend as though you are speaking hypothetically to distance yourself from the kind of comments that those who want equality have to face every day. Women's rights have come a long way, and the reason for this is because many people are shedding the enabling opinions you hold. There's still a long way to go, both in terms of equality AND respect, but like you said, big strides have been made. Sexism in this country is 'nothing' in some respects, given the global predicament, but it is certainly not nothing in terms of a woman living her life expecting to be treated like a human being. People are living this life. They are not living a global life. We do not have some super power of immense empathy to every person on the planet, feeling everybody's pain. People live their own lives and in the moment, when an injustice happens, they don't automatically think 'it's fine, I could be living in a dictatorship, no point complaining'. You keep saying you're not saying they shouldn't complain, but then you're quick to ridicule the complaints or say, well you complain about this but what about this? Either they are justified to complain or they aren't. If you want to discuss global feminism we can do. I know quite a bit about the struggles and highly recommend the book 'Half the Sky: Turning Oppression into Opportunity for Women Worldwide', but please don't use global feminism as a stick to beat western feminism with. They are both equal and are both striving towards the same aim. They are simply at different places.

Just tuned in

What we all thinking for Barca game?

Much of what I have seen from Beyonce with regards to 'man hating' is actually aimed at the industry and those in control of objective beauty, who are overwhelmingly male given their dominance in the boardrooms and higher paid work. It's not an attack on all men, though those who enable and trivialise this phenomenon usually end up in the line of fire, which is natural. Plenty of feminists do call Beyonce out on certain aspects, it's more that they don't have the platform that others do, and the media headlines tend to love swallowing loud mouthed perceived 'man haters' shouting vitriol rather than reasoned arguments promoting feminism. Though that is the case with tabloid headlines generally, across the board. But the debate is very much there, you just have to search for it. I agree that there is sense in women boycotting the art of someone who beats women but it's much more complex than that. It ignores the fact that in this culture (to a lesser extent than others - violent oppression of women - in one sense, but more in another - celebrity culture buying someone a free pass to do as they want) a lot of women see such behaviour far less shocking than they should do. It also ignores the right to remove the artist from the art, something I often practice. Great art has been made by dreadful people. You can despise the person but adore the art. Some people interact with the art on a far more personal level than others, some just consume and don't overthink things. Without meaning to make rash judgements, I think you're far more likely to find consumers in that area of music (though it is not unique to pop). I also don't think it's worth putting Loose Women forward as anything close to feminist, or something feminists would promote. It's pretty awful. They spend a lot of time making easy jokes about how useless men are, then as soon as a male guest comes on they are all over him. I think they are more a product of the culture that we live in. Enlightened to an extent but still under the same pressures as ever materially and physically, simply repackaged. It's also worth looking at the fact that the sports presenters were coming from a place of genuinely feeling that a woman couldn't do a job because she was a woman, and there was a good deal of anger behind the comments, and then a few women making crap jokes about male inadequacy from a far more oppressed position. Loose Women is shit, but it really isn't all that comparable to Andy Gray and Richard Keyes. (Incidentally I did state when starting the thread that I know that men are under pressures too - I am a man after all. It's simply not the same on a general level as what women are facing). In much the same way Loose Women is a shitty consequence of this society, the sexism women in the west encounter every day is a shitty, and let's be honest, shittier consequence too. Your comments on gender discrimination in the west are misguided at best. You're not paying attention if you believe that. There are people fighting for slaves but that does not mean we do not need change in our society. In what other area of life do we say 'well, you've not got the same rights, it's not fair, it's an outdated system and half the population are being let down by society, but get over it, in the lesser developed areas of the world it's worse.' We should be fighting the battle on all fronts until equality is worldwide. We haven't got it here so why give up? It's just a bizarre position to take, and an understandable position to take from someone in a privileged position who isn't as affected by this as many others in society. I'm not sure you're aware of how that makes you sound. I mean you started that post off as devils advocate but basically ended it by saying women should quit moaning because they've got it better than they realise.

I always thought the Axe/Lynx adverts were really weird. Not as weird as if the roles were reversed and it was hundreds of men running towards a woman for sex, of course.

Yeah, my Nana is like that. She really thinks a woman's place is in the kitchen and in the meantime men should be able to 'set the world to rights' and swear and things. It's really frustrating.

Equality after thousands of years? What part of that is unrealistic?

edit - FFS

I'm all about Kilmarnock.

I just listen to orgasms and rage.

I hope he leaves the Premier League sooner rather than later.

Donnie Darko has a good one. Both the score and the soundtrack.

Ah yeah. Blair brought in something similar for us.

I've not heard of that. There's a few scary things that have been passed over the last few decades. Indeed. You should be able to hope for the welfare of all people whilst also looking objectively (as much as you can given limited information available) at the conflicts that are taking place and the motivation behind the actions.

That's an unusual one. In what circumstances is it deemed not necessary to read a person their rights upon arrest? I'm guessing there are some since this debate is now underway in your country. It's the same as the support the troops propaganda. Completely vacuous and often (but not solely) used to demean criticism and questioning of the legitimacy of much of the warfare that takes place. Nobody can disagree with 'support the troops' because nobody wants the people who are fighting for their country to be hurt. Well, I imagine some people may, but they are a different matter altogether. But it gets to a stage where questioning things is seen as unpatriotic. And that's a dangerous position to get into. Constructive criticism and reasonable questioning should never be discouraged. For the benefit of the people.

Well i hope you have fun. The potential for a great time is there!

The biggest traitor is harsh. It seemed like the most logical transfer I've seen in a long time. One of the best strikers in the league moves to one of best teams in league after many years trying his best for weaker team. Moves for a high transfer fee which is agreed by both clubs. He then goes on to win the trophy he's deserved for a good few years and Arsenal remain at the level they were at, pretty much.

Good. I have a friend who is a Villa fan and his moaning has been annoying (given Rovers' plight). I want them to go down so ideally I wanted United to be taking the game seriously and be looking for the three points specifically.

The idea of a nation state being something to rally behind in blind love is an absurd one in this day in age. There are faults in absolutely every nation on the planet (as there always has been). Very dangerous faults. Diversity should be key, so people should not be able to agree on everything (but they should disagree, ideally, in a constructive way), so chants about ideals would be more understandable. Vacuous chanting of the name of a nation's name only serves to diminish inclusivity and make things into an 'us and them' scenario. Just shouting a country's name means nothing and serves to pretend as though everything is fine. Every nation has good and bad people in it, and everyone is indebted to their nation for how it has shaped them. Simple chanting just really makes me lose faith in people as active participants in political discourse and humanitarian efforts around the world which transcends mere borders.

Can United win the title against Villa?