Chuck, you make a good point. The fact that people are killing in army costumes doesn't make it any different. Our government subsidizes Israel's military. If you subsidize something, you get more of it (whatever it happens to be - that's an iron law of economics). Imagine if Israel had to pay for its own way. The local taxes would be higher and there would be more political opposition.

Jay, I was thinking that myself in the back of my mind as well. Having access to such incredible firepower is a huge temptation, especially if it's being subsidized. Military options become the option of choice when that's primarily what's available to any government, and looks effective at the onset..

I know Israel's situation as well, but to defuse the tension by encouraging better economic improvements and being as fair a partner with the Palestinians as is possible seems to be so much better a path to take. The extremists will always be there - but the middle grows when things look better and there's no threat of attack. What I am wondering to myself is perhaps incorrect, but I begin to wonder.. Would the Israeli government, if hard-liners were in power, actually allow the missiles to be smuggled, placed, and launched, just to justify the used of their military? It seems that Israeli intelligence is the best in the world, and yet how did things get so far along?? Hmm.. I'd like to think these were just suspicious thoughts, but it just has me wondering.. How much of conflict is a matter of allowing a force to advance sufficiently to play "war games" of sorts.. ?

But on second thought, it's often tempting but incorrect to attribute motivation to conspiracy, when arrogance and ignorance are often the case..

Looking back at the attack on the trade towers, wasn't it the head of the FBI who canned Paul O'Neil just as he was unraveling the attack plot? And before that, how did a van full of explosives get parked in the parking lot beneath the towers, and detonated, with FBI informants on the inside of the whole operation?? Somebody either wanted the whole credit, and the biggest case win in history, with no-one else getting credit, or didn't like the success of lower ranking members of the organization who might upstage their high-and-mighty positions, and who wouldn't play along with the group-think.

So maybe the rockets got launched because so many agents were kept from doing their jobs for reasons of pleasing agency heads in Israel as well. It just seems like such a gross oversight in intelligence as to make one wonder..

But in the case of Iraq, obviously false intelligence was ordered, and facts were rearranged to fit the agenda. So I wonder..

A Brief Editorial..

There has to be a better way forward. If anything is to succeed in the Holy Lands, it cannot come from one group pounding another, or treating another unfairly. What religious extremism does is cement one's views to a particular narrow picture of things, and that's a problem. The idea of creating a new Kingdom of David, or creating an Islamic Republic as the One True Republic, and the single entity ruling all is also dreamy and impractical.

If a given faith is to succeed, it must succeed in an environment where converts are won in the marketplace of religion, in a state that allows the individual to choose for themselves, be they divinely inspired by God or through other motivations of their own choosing. It cannot succeed through warfare, unfair economic policies, or through controls put on the free will of others, insofar as they do no harm towards their fellow humankind.

If I could wave a magic wand, I would let the region's people decide where there boundaries lay, and that geography would be more natural, and hence a good fit for the Holy Lands. Since this region is central to three very important religions of the world, it should be very accommodating to and respectful of the needs of all who view it's central role as having great importance, and use the best systems of diplomacy to deal with critical issues.

But above all, cement the values of fairness and improvement for the well being of all the regions citizens, use common sense when dealing with issues of justice, and aspire to those commonly held beliefs in the rights of mankind. Outside interference shouldn't be tolerated, especially if it leads to violence as a means to affect change.

 

 

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2007/050107peanutskill.htm

 

Peanuts kill more Americans than terrorists.

 

The easiest (and most accurate) way to view the world is using logic and statistics. That's what governments don't want you to do, because it suddenly makes them look obsolete. The Gaza thing is a sideshow to keep Hamas in power and the US supporting Israel financially.

Perhaps in a perverse sense, extremists can only remain in power if under siege. So, perhaps Hamas sent off the rockets knowing & hoping that the Israeli government would retaliate? In the same sense, the government of Israel may have allowed Hamas to send off the rockets? Thus justifying their need for weapons, and the need for US support?

Sounds conspiratorial, but it could just be true..

And yes, I understand that, as has been the case for a long time - peanuts and deer pose greater risks to our health than terrorists. But the news splashes from a terror attack are 1000X more riveting.. The attention is a problem too - less of that, and less effective the terrorism would be..

Still, it's so tragic, all the bloodshed, damage, refugees fleeing from place to place within Gaza. It's quite an awful thing either way, and limiting the suffering makes so much more sense. I think it's not the justification for governments, but rather the justification for militarists who will argue endlessly for more and more militarization, and then use it to boot! Would we have been so bold had our military budget not been so bloated?? My hope is that we contain the military-industrial complex, before it eats us all alive...

The dead children R.I.P

SOME PICTURES IN GAZA

http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/cn/thread-131644-1-1.html

This as well:Gaza Conflict: 'The Street Smells of Death' - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

I find it amusing that once again not much is to be said of the fact that the US is financially supporting Israel through this so Israel has more of an incentive to continue their side of the fight regardless of the other side's intentions etc, and that not much is mentioned of it. Just an outside view.

EU is only thinking about gas crisis, not about Gaza people dying... What a shame !

Russia must be having fun with that.

Hahaha I love Russia.

EU is only thinking about gas crisis, not about Gaza people dying... What a shame !

are you sure of that?

i think you are mistaken...

they are trying to convince Israel government to stop their attack to let some care get to Palestinians (medicines, food). (and they should try to convince both parts to stop those things, because Israel justify their attacks to Palestinian because they don't stop shoting missiles to their territory, and anyways as has been said here, the problem is that terrorist use civilians as human shields).

 

and i see EU hadn't said anything about the gas crisis (i suppouse you've heard about) that due to some problem that has Russia, (for some problems they have with Ukraine) has decided to stop providing gas to some European countries as for instance Bulgaria.

 

My question on that is why hadn't UN has said anything about that conflict yet? they could get Israel stops their defence, can't they?

The UN is a peace-keeping and humanitarian force generally, and they need the approval of the general assembly and the security council, I think, to act. So, maybe the US government is blocking a measure to act, in favor of the Israeli government's action. Perhaps this will change when Obama takes office in a few short days from now, but given the power of the Israel lobby and the attitude towards Iran (who is supporting Hamas I gather), it will be a hard thing to change in Washington (unless the press begins to show more of the horror of it all, but at present has been kept out of much of Gaza).

I think it's absurd; letting it get to the point where rockets were being fired on a constant basis to begin with, and then using excessive force with many tragic consequences is very saddening.

Here's a bit from The Nation magazine, in case you haven't access to it:

"Bomb a Ghetto, Raise a Cheer..

Half drowned in the torrents of supportive speech and prose lavished here and in Europe on Israel's criminal onslaught on the Palestinian inhabitants of Gaza, one naturally tends to compare and contrast such paens to those extended to kindred barbarities by Israel in the past. Is the amen chorus louder, softer or more or less the same?

If you stick to highway traffic through the columns and bulletins of the major media, aside from some passable stuff on the cable news shows, the flow of ignorant drivel seems as toxic as ever, maybe worse, since Israel has tried to empty Gaza of all reporters. The Israelis wipe out whole families, phone apartment blocks to terrify the occupants with boasts that their homes will shortly be blown up, and the Israel claque here stresses the consummate humanity of the attackers. Charles Krauthammer in the Washington Post celebrates the birth of the new year by extolling Israel for being so "scrupulous about civilian life." Professor Alan Dershowitz dishes out congratulation for Israel's "perfectly porportionate" onslaght.

My mind goes back to Martin Peretz in 1982 inscribing in The New Republic glowing sermons on the doctrines of humainty instilled in the IDF (meaning the Israeli Defense Forces I gather), words written not long before Israeli generals gave the green light for the killers of the Phalange to go to work, disembowling women in the camps under the indifferent or admiring gaze of the IDF personnel.

Bomb ghettos and civilians die. I write as news comes that Israeli gunners have managed to shell and kill nearly fifty Palestinians, including women and children, fleeing a UN-run school in Gaza. I can guarantee that Israeli claims about Hamas's use of that school are already on the wires. Since no one is going to quiz him on the matter of bombing civilians, let me quote Hamas leader Khaled Meshal on this issue in a response to Alya Rea of CounterPunch and me in Damascus last May. The interview appears in the latest CounterPunch newsletter:

Rea: "My question is about using violent means. When people use violent means, inevitably innocent people suffer, children, not only on the Palestinian side, but Israeli children too. What do you think?"

Meshal: "Unfortunately the insistence on violent street repression by our assailants leads to innocent blood on the streets. Since 1996, 12 years ago, we have proposed to exclude civilian targets from the conflict on both sides. Israel did not respond to that...."

Later, in the article,

 

"The precipitous decline of the Old Information Order is marked in the shift of opinion, noted in a December 31st Rasmussen poll showing that while Americans remain overwhelmingly supportive of Israel, they are split evenly on the question of whether Israel should attack Gaza. 44 percent in favor of the assault, and 41 percent against. The same poll showed that in contrast to solid Republican cheers, only 31 percent of Democrats are supportive of Israel's attack, unlike their elected representatives. On Obama's "Change" website, there has been pressure from the Democratic base for Obama to condemn Israel's attacks."

Psychologically speaking, I don't see a whole lot of evidence the Palestinians are very interested in peace. They are preoccupied with their own sense of victimization and oppression. Why don't they just stop throwing rocks and get on with their lives? Because to do so would be the ultimate acknowledgment that the past 60 years (as you put it) have been an utter lie and waste of human life. They can't admit that, not now, not ever!

 

I have final exams so I dont have a lot of time to tell you the history of the 60 years...all I have to say is let's say that they should get on with their lives and not claim their land back...it's not even an option...and as I said before all the attempts of so called peace ended badly for Palestinians and for the interest of Israel...so yes they're frustrated. even the 3 hours that are supposed to be everyday...they did it for 2 days maybe to show the world that they do want peace and now they open fire on civilians on these 3 hours as soon as they put their feet out of the door!!

and Israel dont seem interested in peace as well.

one thing I want to make clear...most of Hamas's thoughts right now...it's the thoughts of -I can say-95% of Arabs and all Palestinians.

The easiest (and most accurate) way to view the world is using logic and statistics.

Exactly...the numbers and articles that I posted up...logically show that Israel is doing a lot of criminal actions and very very wrong decisions and a country as powerful as Israel...couldn't have done them all by mistake...they mean to do these things...they tell million of lies and that alone shows that they're wrong...they're covering their crimes with lies that a little kid wont believe!!

Sunshine, I'm not an expert on the region nor the conflict, but tell me what you think would stop the conflict. I will listen.

I'm not an expert on politics...I'm actually only 18...but Israel wants to control who is in charge in Gaza and in Palestine. they most diffidently had "Abbas" by the nick he was under their control...he doesn't do anything unless Israel approves which is really shameful and so most of the people doesn't want him in charge anymore...and he's not right now..his time is over...I don't know when they're planning to make the new elections but I'm almost sure that Hamas would be elected (and that's a proof that they DOES NOT use chilldren as human shields) and I dont knoe if Israel would stay still about that...I mean the first time they were elected Israel sieged Gaza and tried as much as they could to prevent them of be a legal government. which led them to what they call smuggle weapons(when I dont see why Israel that is using Internationally banned weapons are allowed to have them and have the right to defend itself...and that the US would give it even more!!!! while Hamas

doesn't have the right to do so??) anyway back to the point...I don't really know what exactly should happen to stop this...but I know that war criminals should be put on trial. and that they should stop siege and open all the ways to Gaza and give them the life they deserve. but now it's too late really all the destruction and the 1000 people that have died and the 5000 that has been injured and others have no were to go...homes have been destroyed. even UN schools have been hit 3 times!!! and a UN building that had all the food and supplies have been destroyed completely!! WTF!! I'm really frustrated!! I think now the hatred is at it's maximum and that Palestinians wont be able to just get on with their lives...Israel couldn't have hoped for peace with all the destruction she made...If they killed all members of Hamas (hypothetically talking) I assure you hundreds just like them is going to be there to defend the right of Palestine!! and not just Palestinians...it's going to be from all over the Arab world and maybe other countries as well.

Yes, so it seems - the Israeli government is trying to force change by extreme military means, using provocations to justify massive air assaults and shelling densely populated regions of Gaza. Looks like a repeat of Lebanon in 2006. I can understand you wanting you own government, independent of the Israeli government - it is you right, just as it is the right of Israel to have their own government. But I can understand the Israeli governments' concerns with Hamas, owing to the militant wing. To reduce tensions and move towards co-existence, one wins friends and encourages change through good-will and fairness with one's neighbors, not through sanctions & incredibly harsh retaliation. The whole idea of pressuring citizens of another country for change never works as far as I can see - it usually does the exact opposite, and fuels radicalism, as that would be anyone's reaction to being oppressed. Then, the militancy grows, launches weapons at Israel, and Israel's govenment responds not by targetting just the missile launchers, but by bombing and shelling civilian areas, and further tightening sanctions. One suggestions was that the Israeli government's policy was to appear to "go crazy" so that everyone would be afraid to resist their efforts to control the Palestinian people, but I cannot see such a mad policy ever working.. Yes, targetting a UN building and a school - that's just criminal. One cannot justify fighting 'terrorism' by doing just the same to unarmed, innocent civilians and aid workers! And I agree, the attacks will fuel hatred and resentment, and lead to more extremists joining Hama's militant wing - in many ways, making the lives of average Israeli's even more perilous.

I can now see why we need in the U.S. to move towards publicly financed elections and strong limits on campaign donations, so that no lobbying groups & their interests can hold sway over our government here. The Israel lobby, the military-industrial complex, and others wind up promoting the arms shipments to a hard-line government that doesn't even serve the best interests of it's citizens in the long run. The average Israeli would be safer with a less militant government, as we would be too. Hopefully, we can change this - for everyone's sake.

this song made me cry :cry:

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GQrJndpbzc]YouTube - We Will Not Go Down - Michael Heart Music Video[/ame]

 

My heart goes out to all those who are suffering in Gaza in the aftermath - we are all individuals, who feel pain when we are hurt, and know the hurt when we loose someone close to us.