Americans must now buy bad health insurance policies - even if they don't need them.

[Texasluvsjonny]

If you think all the people with insurance and tax payers haven't been footing the bill for people without any insurance all these years you are kidding yourselves. Why do you think health care costs so much? Because the prices reflect the fact that so many people that use it can't pay for it.

[Saffire]

If you think all the people with insurance and tax payers haven't been footing the bill for people without any insurance all these years you are kidding yourselves. Why do you think health care costs so much? Because the prices reflect the fact that so many people that use it can't pay for it.

 

Let's take your quote and apply it to another sector of the economy:

 

"Why do you think hotel rooms cost so much? Because the prices reflect the fact that so many people that use it can't pay for it."

 

"Why do you think movie tickets cost so much? Because the prices reflect the fact that so many people that use it can't pay for it."

 

If it looks silly, it's because it is.

 

Why are we in this situation now? Because the government has already strangled the healthcare industry. It started with forcing anyone who wants to practice medicine to get a license, and it got worse with medicare/medicaid. All these programs do is give doctors the ability to tax Americans, via the government.

 

It would be as if Olive Garden convinced Obama to force everyone to buy "hunger insurance" which can only be spent at your local Olive Garden restaurant. And when Olive Garden has "locked-in" these new customers, they are free to begin raising their prices for everything on the menu.

[Matter-Eater Lad]

People are going to wait until they're sick before getting insurance. The fine for not having it is smaller than the cost of having it. So since they can't deny you when you're sick, people can just get it after becoming sick. This is going to work well....

[Saffire]

Nick, I think this would be the perfect opportunity for the "Tea Party" people to adopt a passive resistance strategy. Just don't pay the fines. Ignore the law as if it doesn't exist.

 

But they probably couldn't do this. At their core, they are to the Government what Protestants are to Christianity. They still believe in the essence of it, and respect for law (no matter how bad it clearly is).

[Matter-Eater Lad]

We'll see. I think there will be a growing number of Libertarians willing to stand up in the coming years.

[Space Cadet]

Those Tea Party sorts would be a lot easier to respect if more of them seemed to understand the difference between Communism and Fascism. :thinking:

[the_gloaming09]

We'll see. I think there will be a growing number of Libertarians willing to stand up in the coming years.

 

i agree... with people sick and tired of corruption and lies from obama and bush I think that people will probably try to go back to the roots of this country.

[Pseudonym]

The whole decision really didn't affect me until I realized that I'll someday have to deal with all of this...a part of me doesn't really understand what's going on, all I know is that I've lost one of the rights I'm supposed to be granted as an American.

Don't talk if you have no clue what's going on.

 

 

yup... like I said, it's freedom of choice to let me pick a provider and decide if i even want it. i don't need the government telling me that I have to get this I can make my own choices.

You'd be singing quite a different tune if you were on death's door and denied coverage because you couldn't afford it. Amazing how being in good health and probably having enough money makes you feel like you're being violated.

 

I mean if you can get things for free because you are financially disadvantaged then why would you take the effort to go work?

Oh this is such bullshit. This epitomizes all the arguments that "oh no there's corruption now" "oh no people will be taken advantage of". What the fuck do you think's been going on? It's a classic psychology move, listing all these potential problems that will arise and not listing any of the problems being resolved. Makes the readers focus in on what's being taken away so they can group up against the bill and feel cheated. No matter what system you have there will be cheating and unfairness. Get used to it.

[The Escapist]

http://www.medicareaustralia.gov.au/about/whatwedo/health-system/index.jsp

 

Im just going to quote this only because I think no one paid attention before.

[the_gloaming09]

Don't talk if you have no clue what's going on.

 

 

 

You'd be singing quite a different tune if you were on death's door and denied coverage because you couldn't afford it. Amazing how being in good health and probably having enough money makes you feel like you're being violated.

 

 

Oh this is such bullshit. This epitomizes all the arguments that "oh no there's corruption now" "oh no people will be taken advantage of". What the fuck do you think's been going on? It's a classic psychology move, listing all these potential problems that will arise and not listing any of the problems being resolved. Makes the readers focus in on what's being taken away so they can group up against the bill and feel cheated. No matter what system you have there will be cheating and unfairness. Get used to it.

 

Regardless of health the government doesn't have a right to be telling me what to do. It's the same story with the patriot act... I don't like the idea of the government being able to pretty much spy on what i'm doing. I just feel that it's not right for them to mandate me into a health care plan, when I might not even want it in the first place.

 

 

For your second argument what I don't like is a government handout. I believe in being on your own and working hard to become successful. It works because it provides an incentive... you work hard and do well, you move up. Handouts provide less incentive because what's the use of working harder if you get it all handed to you already?

 

 

Also... this whole bill is a massive change (whether for better or worse). So I think it's a disgrace that the majority of the people voted for the bill without even knowing what the hell is in the 2,000+ page thing. Plus it was done by back room deals, bribes, and no transparency (which is what was promised).

 

 

Look we both have our opinions, and that's just what I feel about this issue

[Pseudonym]

Regardless of health the government doesn't have a right to be telling me what to do. It's the same story with the patriot act... I don't like the idea of the government being able to pretty much spy on what i'm doing. I just feel that it's not right for them to mandate me into a health care plan, when I might not even want it in the first place.

I don't hear you crying much about having to buy car insurance. If you don't like the government telling you what to do, fine, complain. But when you get sick or know someone who does you'll be glad as hell you have insurance then.

 

For your second argument what I don't like is a government handout. I believe in being on your own and working hard to become successful. It works because it provides an incentive... you work hard and do well, you move up. Handouts provide less incentive because what's the use of working harder if you get it all handed to you already?

So you believe in an all Capitalist system. Well there are places in the world (you know, weird far off places like Canada) that have Universal health care without being socialists.

 

And I hate when people say "Handouts provide less incentive because what's the use of working harder if you get it all handed to you already?" What all? You get handed out health insurance so you don't get left to die when there's an available treatment? Having these new policies isn't some magic system where you can be lazy and poor and still have "it all". If you're a moocher yes you may have insurance now but you'll be living on the street. Don't give me that shit that everyone will just take handouts now. That's one aspect of life they might be able to take advantage of; this bill won't give them a house or car. The only system I can think of where that could actually be the case is called a utopia.

 

 

Also... this whole bill is a massive change (whether for better or worse). So I think it's a disgrace that the majority of the people voted for the bill without even knowing what the hell is in the 2,000+ page thing. Plus it was done by back room deals, bribes, and no transparency (which is what was promised).

How often do you think these people actually read all of that before voting? I don't support that they don't but come on, did you expect something different from this bill and every other one?

 

And if you honestly expected transparency and no lobbying then you are pitifully naive. That's a weak argument to try to pin on this.

 

Those are issues with our government system as a whole, don't just whip them out as ammo against a bill you don't like.

[The Escapist]

 

So you believe in an all Capitalist system. Well there are places in the world (you know, weird far off places like Canada) that have Universal health care without being socialists.

.

 

Like Australia.

[jenflor]

@Bryce- thanks for posting about Australia's system... I especially like this part

The aim of the national health care funding system is to give all Australians, regardless of their personal circumstances, access to health care at an affordable cost or at no cost, while allowing choice for individuals through substantial private sector involvement in delivery and financing.

 

which I think is what the new healthcare reform is working toward.

What do Australians generally think of their healthcare system, Bryce?

 

WE ARE NOT GOING TO BECOME A SOCIALIST COUNTRY because of this. The fact that people actually believe that just boggles my mind.

 

@in the gloaming (i'm sorry I can't remember your name).. earlier you mentioned that the majority of the american citizens did not support this bill. I don't think that's correct. Most of what I heard had the country pretty evenly split... AND in many cases, once specific aspects of the bill were explained to people, the amount in favor went up.

 

@Nick- I agree with basically everything you said.

 

@Ian- you asked if the Obama honeymoon was over... it was over before it began. He's been attacked since day one. I think a lot of his supporters (myself included) were getting anxious and impatient for some major move on his part. While this bill is not perfect, I really do think it's a move in the right direction. The current healthcare system is so broken right now, SOMETHING needed to be done. And in my opinion, something that makes healthcare more accessible to the underprivileged (or hell, just won't bankrupt me if my husband loses his job and insurance) is a good thing.

[Texasluvsjonny]

Let's take your quote and apply it to another sector of the economy:

 

"Why do you think hotel rooms cost so much? Because the prices reflect the fact that so many people that use it can't pay for it."

 

"Why do you think movie tickets cost so much? Because the prices reflect the fact that so many people that use it can't pay for it."

 

If it looks silly, it's because it is.

 

Why are we in this situation now? Because the government has already strangled the healthcare industry. It started with forcing anyone who wants to practice medicine to get a license, and it got worse with medicare/medicaid. All these programs do is give doctors the ability to tax Americans, via the government.

 

It would be as if Olive Garden convinced Obama to force everyone to buy "hunger insurance" which can only be spent at your local Olive Garden restaurant. And when Olive Garden has "locked-in" these new customers, they are free to begin raising their prices for everything on the menu.

The difference is when you go to any of those places and can't pay they don't have to serve you. You come to the hospital and by law we must treat you. And if you even think of skimping, the lawyers will be down first thing in the morning to file suit.

[Pseudonym]

WE ARE NOT GOING TO BECOME A SOCIALIST COUNTRY because of this. The fact that people actually believe that just boggles my mind.

 

@Ian- you asked if the Obama honeymoon was over... it was over before it began. He's been attacked since day one. I think a lot of his supporters (myself included) were getting anxious and impatient for some major move on his part. While this bill is not perfect, I really do think it's a move in the right direction. The current healthcare system is so broken right now, SOMETHING needed to be done. And in my opinion, something that makes healthcare more accessible to the underprivileged (or hell, just won't bankrupt me if my husband loses his job and insurance) is a good thing.

I agree here.

 

The difference is when you go to any of those places and can't pay they don't have to serve you. You come to the hospital and by law we must treat you. And if you even think of skimping, the lawyers will be down first thing in the morning to file suit.

As it should be.

[The Final Track]

Exactly! loooool

... though you have to use another myth as abortion was now left out thanks to Stupak. ;)

 

What about the myth that the bill kills old people. I loved that one. :laugh3:

... though some people are seriously arguing about it... :shocked2:

 

No :angry: I heard on Fox News that they're gonna force us to have sex with other men and then have an abortion!

[a-chan]

Sorry to sound dumb but americans seem so angry with this new law?? Isn't it a good news for you all that more people have access to health care? :thinking:

What bother you so much in this reform?

 

I think France's system (which was rated n°1 in 2001) kind looks like australian's one when I red this

 

The aim of the national health care funding system is to give all Australians, regardless of their personal circumstances, access to health care at an affordable cost or at no cost, while allowing choice for individuals through substantial private sector involvement in delivery and financing.

 

Our system too is based on solidary. Workers pays for a 'commun fund' which pays for yourself AND people who can't afford tp pay health bill. In here, everybody is covered by the national health care provided by the state. We don't think about 'money' issues when we go see a doctor or get to the hospital or buy our drugs because we know that the national system will take care of it. It covers around 70 % of your bill and for the rest, to be totally reimburse, you can get a private insurance that covers the 30 % missing, most of the time, your employer pay it for you. But if you're very sick (like cancer or sthg), national health care covers 100 %. Health came first and it's a great relief I think...

Of course the national found is in debt, it's not perfect but we have good treaments no matter who we are and what disease we have :)

 

Here a little explanation of how it works here compared to US.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92419273

[Koala]

No :angry: I heard on Fox News that they're gonna force us to have sex with other men and then have an abortion!

 

???

 

Hello. I have just seen this threat and I'm a bit lost. I'm going to tell you how is all this seen in Spain and I suppose that is quite the same in other countries...

Since now, in America the health insurence was private, and so you had to pay for all the things you need. Now Obama wants to start with a public system of health, and I suppose that means that if you go to the doctor you don't have to pay, and the public system will be suposed to be as good as the privte.

The main problem is that lots of people have been paying a private insurance for lots of years and I assume that's why now they don't want a public system to start (because they already have their insurance). However, for people who didn't have one it will be much more better.

Well that's what everybody in here believes about all.

I don't know if that's the truth, I hope you understand what I mean (sorry for my English) and I don't want to sound rude and make anybody feel bad but I can't expres better. That's what I think of it:

 

I think that a public system will help a lot to people because not everybody can pay for a private insurence. Here in Spain the health service is completely free and I must say that is much more better that the private health! MUCH MORE! It's is true that there are lots of queues and you have to wait but I think it works quite well.

One question, I thought that Obama was socialist... at least more than Bush... isn't it true? and so what's the problem about been socialist?

 

Now in Spain the president is Zapatero, socialist and...nowbody is forced to have sex, to abort or anything:confused: Abortion is a new law, I'm not gonna explain it now..., and well marriage between same sex is allowed !!!

 

Thanks for reading hope you understand!

[Tnspieler1012]

No :angry: I heard on Fox News that they're gonna force us to have sex with other men and then have an abortion!

 

Its annoying when people poke nonsensical jabs at fox news without putting forth tangible arguments. Obviously it has a conservative bias, but unless you reply intelligently to something they actual say, you're just being a dick.

[mc_squared]

Its annoying when people poke nonsensical jabs at fox news without putting forth tangible arguments. Obviously it has a conservative bias, but unless you reply intelligently to something they actual say, you're just being a dick.

 

Same goes for anyone slagging off any other particular news source for the sake of it.

Happens quite a lot, unfortunately.:dozey:

[jenflor]

@Koala- :lol: The Final Track was being sarcastic... he's making a remark on how the US television station Fox News is not the most shall we say, "fair and balanced" source for news.

 

But I think your understanding of the plan is pretty good. But the Obama plan would not make people give up their private health insurance if they already have it.

 

@a-chan, I personally am for the healthcare reform, but I think the main complaint against it (other than people being afraid that the US will turn socialist :rolleyes:) is the money factor. The cost of the program is huge and people don't want their taxes to go up. While I understand that, we (the US) have typically had no problem spending BILLIONS of dollars on defense. I feel that the health of the citizens is just as, if not more important than the latest military equipment. And before anyone jumps down my throat, YES, OF COURSE I SUPPORT OUR TROOPS.

[The Final Track]

Its annoying when people poke nonsensical jabs at fox news without putting forth tangible arguments. Obviously it has a conservative bias, but unless you reply intelligently to something they actual say, you're just being a dick.

 

No, it's called exaggeration for the sake of a point, you can say what you want though ;)

[Matter-Eater Lad]

WE ARE NOT GOING TO BECOME A SOCIALIST COUNTRY because of this. The fact that people actually believe that just boggles my mind.

 

Not because of this but it's a huge part of the trend. If you look at the decline of the private sector versus government you see a trend towards socialism. One bill won't do that, but many of them over the years with more involvement in the private sector by government and a growing government point to a clear movement towards socialism in this nation.

 

Isn't it a good news for you all that more people have access to health care?

 

Not less care at a higher prices.

 

People don't understand this simple fact;

 

Since governments involvement in the health industry prices have kept skyrocketing. Whenever government gets involved in a sector money floods there raising prices. Real wages have been declining while real prices have been increasing, thus more people can't afford things and have to go into debt.

 

Back in the 50s when there was very little government involvement prices were lower and mroe stable and on average the poor and rich had the same amount of doctor visits. As government got more involved prices rose as money flooded that sector. Thus the average American has paid the price for the government involvement.

 

If you look at plastic surgery, it has very little government involvement and prices have been very stable there.(They were high to start with because they are elective not necessary surgery)

 

It's this simple idea people fail to grasp. Thus prices are going to RISE A LOT because of this while real output by the nation and wealth is decreasing. All while our government is borrowing record amounts. Not to mention in the next 30 years or so medicaid, medicare and social security are going under. We can go back to what worked well before and was affordable, a health care industry with little government, thus less money in that sector and lower prices. OR completely ignore history, continue the trend that has raised prices greatly and hurt the country....Common sense isn't so common.

 

We have 100 trillion in liabilities, with declining currency, output and wealth and a aging population and no real savers. This is unsustainable.

 

Last question, when has government done any program well, and in budget?

[Tnspieler1012]

No, it's called exaggeration for the sake of a point, you can say what you want though ;)

thanks for giving me the liberty of speaking my mind. Look, obviously you were being sarcastic, but if you were making a point you clearly have no intention of arguing or backing it up. (I'm not being as cold and serious as I sound, it's just irking when people make incorrect exaggerations about fox or a politician, and then act as if they've accomplished something)

[HorrificAttack]

Same goes for anyone slagging off any other particular news source for the sake of it.

Happens quite a lot, unfortunately.:dozey:

 

No that's not true at all though, The Daily Mail is just a sub par newspaper with terrible journalism and underlying tones of racism and hatred, that's not comparable to what was being said here.