This is clearly an example of you using the term 'Christian' in a demeaning way. Now I see your point upon which there is still a bit too much orthodoxy but if we're going to be balanced here we have to look at the negatives and positives of what religion can bring. You tell me how Christianity somehow negatively impacts your lives. I believe that religion as a whole brings negativity with it but I also believe it has proved to have a positive impact upon the way we live our lives today.

 

Also why don't you accept religion as a way of how and what people are? We accept sexuality, race, ethnicity in people. So why not religious beliefs? I sense you seem irritated by it.

 

how is that being demeaning, I just said that Christianity affects us more in the West than any other religion. And you want to know how religion effects me personally, because most if not all our politicians are Christian or call themselves that, and because of their idiologies we have to have conflicts about issues of abortion, gay rights, and many other things; many laws are passed that I don't agree with because of someones religious beliefs.

how is that being demeaning, I just said that Christianity affects us more in the West than any other religion. And you want to know how religion effects me personally, because most if not all our politicians are Christian or call themselves that, and because of their idiologies we have to have conflicts about issues of abortion, gay rights, and many other things; many laws are passed that I don't agree with because of someones religious beliefs.

 

Yeh, another example is their opposition to Stem cell research which is affecting the lives of millions.

Also why don't you accept religion as a way of how and what people are? We accept sexuality, race, ethnicity in people. So why not religious beliefs? I sense you seem irritated by it.

 

Do you accept people who are homophobic? People who cover up child rape? Or even people whose tolerance of this allow it to happen?

 

I think we are being quite lenient. We discuss things quite reasonably here, when we have every reason to scream at religions for how they poison this world. Whether it is the ridiculous belief that one part of this beautiful earth is more holy than another, deeply rooted sexism, homophobia, child mutilation, the millions of deaths around the world through the spread of lies regarding condoms or many many wars, tortures and unquestioned atrocities which have been let be so as not to offend the religious.

 

We are not attacking anybody here. I have religious friends, I have had religious lovers, but throughout we maintain the right to discuss exactly what it is that we believe, without encroaching on each others personal freedoms. It has always been hard for them to defend the actions of those higher in the hierarchy of their church, and the things which they have done, simply because as a driving force, with enough people, religion just doesn't benefit people at all.

 

I believe that it is religion which is the least tolerant. Not necessarily the individuals, but as a whole. Every religion (or at least major religion, this is leaving aside incestuous and blood letting cults) has a severe amount of blood on their hands.

 

Forgive us at times if we sound a little patronising, but it's hard to watch everything around us being put in jeopardy when it's quite obvious that organised religion is a tool for control. I have no issues with people believing in a God, but believing in a religion is simply dangerous.

I totally agree with what Greg just said.

 

There's a difference between individuals believing in "something" and the "corporate machine" (lack of appropriate word :embarrassed:) that the religions are and how they have their say in legislation, politics etc.

So many fucked up things happening because of them.

Wars. Diseases spreading. There's a long list I don't want to think about too much actually.

It's unbelievable actually.

Do you accept people who are homophobic? People who cover up child rape? Or even people whose tolerance of this allow it to happen?

 

I think we are being quite lenient. We discuss things quite reasonably here, when we have every reason to scream at religions for how they poison this world. Whether it is the ridiculous belief that one part of this beautiful earth is more holy than another, deeply rooted sexism, homophobia, child mutilation, the millions of deaths around the world through the spread of lies regarding condoms or many many wars, tortures and unquestioned atrocities which have been let be so as not to offend the religious.

 

We are not attacking anybody here. I have religious friends, I have had religious lovers, but throughout we maintain the right to discuss exactly what it is that we believe, without encroaching on each others personal freedoms. It has always been hard for them to defend the actions of those higher in the hierarchy of their church, and the things which they have done, simply because as a driving force, with enough people, religion just doesn't benefit people at all.

 

I believe that it is religion which is the least tolerant. Not necessarily the individuals, but as a whole. Every religion (or at least major religion, this is leaving aside incestuous and blood letting cults) has a severe amount of blood on their hands.

 

Forgive us at times if we sound a little patronising, but it's hard to watch everything around us being put in jeopardy when it's quite obvious that organised religion is a tool for control. I have no issues with people believing in a God, but believing in a religion is simply dangerous.

 

What you mentioned is rightfully disgusting but they are all controversies that have been that of the Catholic Church alone. It shows on your part a failure to distinct and separate factions of a subject you've shown you have limited knowledge of. Take the Church of England for example. Seems rather liberal these days. Probably only a matter of time before gay ministers are fully incorporated. Women ministers on the rise and not a problem with child abuse. Too many factions in Christianity are backward but surely you'd have no problem if they moved into the modern age? I'm clearly not sticking up for Christianity and am massively critical of it particularly the Catholic Church. I do think religion isn't as liberal as it should be and the beliefs of what many in religion commit to are beliefs of a bygone era merely influenced by the writings of a small number of men.

 

And while SudeNimes may argue that bad things in life today etc wars we fight are as a result of religion. Sadly that is just an assumption. Many wars may take on religious overtones but the major reasons of war lies in ethnicity clashes, oppression and power struggle. Religion causes war is such an off the cuff remark just as atheism causes war is. I could argue 'It's atheism that causes war!' because certainly Stalin, Mao and the Nazis didn't believe in religion but obviously that's ridiculous.

What you mentioned is rightfully disgusting but they are all controversies that have been that of the Catholic Church alone. It shows on your part a failure to distinct and separate factions of a subject you've shown you have limited knowledge of. Take the Church of England for example. Seems rather liberal these days. Probably only a matter of time before gay ministers are fully incorporated. Women ministers on the rise and not a problem with child abuse. Too many factions in Christianity are backward but surely you'd have no problem if they moved into the modern age? I'm clearly not sticking up for Christianity and am massively critical of it particularly the Catholic Church. I do think religion isn't as liberal as it should be and the beliefs of what many in religion commit to are beliefs of a bygone era merely influenced by the writings of a small number of men.

 

And while SudeNimes may argue that bad things in life today etc wars we fight are as a result of religion. Sadly that is just an assumption. Many wars may take on religious overtones but the major reasons of war lies in ethnicity clashes, oppression and power struggle. Religion causes war is such an off the cuff remark just as atheism causes war is. I could argue 'It's atheism that causes war!' because certainly Stalin, Mao and the Nazis didn't believe in religion but obviously that's ridiculous.

 

No, I was not discussing the Catholic church alone. I referred to Islam and Judaism quite clearly. Please re-read my post.

 

I think you should also take some time to study some of the fascist dictators more closely before making statements like that. Nazism, Communism and Stalinism are nothing like as secular as people think.

 

Until 1917, the year of the Russian Revolution, millions of Russians had for hundreds and hundreds of years been told that the head of the state, the Czar, was also the head of the state for the church and was more than human. He was the little father of the children. He wasn't quite divine and was more like a saint than a human. He owned everything in the country and everything was due to him. That's how a gigantic layer of Russian society was inculcated with servile, fatalistic ideas. This is such a huge opportunity for a dictator to exploit. He inherited a population that he could manipulate due to their superstition. Stalin set up an inquisition, outing heretics through the Moscow trials, proclaims miracles by claiming to have improved the harvests himself, and therefore all thanks should be to him and they should continue to praise him to allow it to continue. Incidentally he always kept the Russian orthodox church on his side. The church split and some moved to New York, but the church in Russia always remained part of the regime

 

Hitler and Mussolini made an even more aggressive deal with the Roman Catholic Church and with some of the Protestants. The other great axis of evil at the time was the Emporer of Japan, who was not only religious but apparently also a god.

 

As Hitchens says, my advice to you would be to find a society which has adopted the teachings of the Spinoza, Voltaire, Galileo, Einstein, Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson and gone down the pits as a result of doing so, into famine, war, dictatorship, repression and torture. That would be a fair test.

 

Atheism is filled with the same amount of bad people as faith, although they do not have something specifically suggesting that they oppress others.

 

I also find it odd that you describe the Church of England to be liberal, even though you point out yourself that gay ministers aren't fully incorporated. I'd find it interesting to see what you define as 'pretty liberal'.

What you mentioned is rightfully disgusting but they are all controversies that have been that of the Catholic Church alone. It shows on your part a failure to distinct and separate factions of a subject you've shown you have limited knowledge of. Take the Church of England for example. Seems rather liberal these days. Probably only a matter of time before gay ministers are fully incorporated. Women ministers on the rise and not a problem with child abuse. Too many factions in Christianity are backward but surely you'd have no problem if they moved into the modern age? I'm clearly not sticking up for Christianity and am massively critical of it particularly the Catholic Church. I do think religion isn't as liberal as it should be and the beliefs of what many in religion commit to are beliefs of a bygone era merely influenced by the writings of a small number of men.

 

And while SudeNimes may argue that bad things in life today etc wars we fight are as a result of religion. Sadly that is just an assumption. Many wars may take on religious overtones but the major reasons of war lies in ethnicity clashes, oppression and power struggle. Religion causes war is such an off the cuff remark just as atheism causes war is. I could argue 'It's atheism that causes war!' because certainly Stalin, Mao and the Nazis didn't believe in religion but obviously that's ridiculous.

 

You said that we, specifically I, am demeaning religion, and that we are being ignorant and intolerant. But why are you sticking up for religion so much, I would love it if you could explain your position on religion, because it seems as if you are apologizing for religion way too much.

Braddock your historical lecture on Russia pre revolution, Germany and Italy quite frankly does not add up. You trying to say that Hitler killed the Jews and tried taking over the world because of religion? Are you trying to say the Tsar's faith was somehow related to the ravishing of the Russian state? Don't be so ridiculous. So I guess Mao and Stalin's oppression of religion was okay in your eyes. You see there are two sides to this story. Neither is correct so the argument is defunct. And also what do you mean by ", my advice to you would be to find a society which has adopted the teachings of the Spinoza, Voltaire, Galileo, Einstein, Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson and gone down the pits as a result of doing so, into famine, war, dictatorship, repression and torture. That would be a fair test." Are you saying I don't believe in these philosophy's? You're points are incredibly hazy.

 

 

And Arwen - I made it clear that my position was that I believe in God but I do not conform to any religion. I am in the simplest form a deist but with respect for both sides.

The fact that some churches are corrupt doesn't mean much to me, I mean it's terrible and everything, but I don't think I should stop believing that there is a God just because of that. There are corrupt and evil people everywhere in life. Also, I haven't gone to church regularly in years if that means anything. And I don't believe that churches or religion exist to control people. You make your own decisions for yourself, you go to church or believe in God for your own benefit, you don't do that for the benefit of the church/religion.

 

Why is this so off topic?

 

Anyway, regarding evolution, all I learned about it in high school was that micro-evolution is real, but that there isn't enough evidence for macro-evolution and the reasons why, etc. I'm not saying I agree with the second part, I just need to learn about it on my own and make my own decision. I certainly don't think evolution is false though, but I don't think that evolution rules out the existence of God.

Braddock your historical lecture on Russia pre revolution, Germany and Italy quite frankly does not add up. You trying to say that Hitler killed the Jews and tried taking over the world because of religion? Are you trying to say the Tsar's faith was somehow related to the ravishing of the Russian state? Don't be so ridiculous. So I guess Mao and Stalin's oppression of religion was okay in your eyes. You see there are two sides to this story. Neither is correct so the argument is defunct. And also what do you mean by ", my advice to you would be to find a society which has adopted the teachings of the Spinoza, Voltaire, Galileo, Einstein, Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson and gone down the pits as a result of doing so, into famine, war, dictatorship, repression and torture. That would be a fair test." Are you saying I don't believe in these philosophy's? You're points are incredibly hazy.

 

 

And Arwen - I made it clear that my position was that I believe in God but I do not conform to any religion. I am in the simplest form a deist but with respect for both sides.

 

Just a question, do you think it is wrong to have a debate about religion or to criticize it in any way. Because if you don't then I don't even see why we are having this argument, no one on this thread has insulted religion, yes we did make fun of Creationists but not Christianity or any other religion, so I would love to know what your problem is? (and I don't mean that in a bossy way)

The fact that some churches are corrupt doesn't mean much to me, I mean it's terrible and everything, but I don't think I should stop believing that there is a God just because of that. There are corrupt and evil people everywhere in life. Also, I haven't gone to church regularly in years if that means anything. And I don't believe that churches or religion exist to control people. You make your own decisions for yourself, you go to church or believe in God for your own benefit, you don't do that for the benefit of the church/religion.

 

Why is this so off topic?

 

Anyway, regarding evolution, all I learned about it in high school was that micro-evolution is real, but that there isn't enough evidence for macro-evolution and the reasons why, etc. I'm not saying I agree with the second part, I just need to learn about it on my own and make my own decision. I certainly don't think evolution is false though, but I don't think that evolution rules out the existence of God.

 

I don't know what you mean by micro and macro evolution, but I think the fossil records are plenty of evidence to support evolution.

Just a question, do you think it is wrong to have a debate about religion or to criticize it in any way. Because if you don't then I don't even see why we are having this argument, no one on this thread has insulted religion, yes we did make fun of Creationists but not Christianity or any other religion, so I would love to know what your problem is? (and I don't mean that in a bossy way)

 

Yeah that's not really true, re-read through the thread and you'll see some people did make fun of Christians, not only in this thread but in others too.

 

Also, making fun of the other side is not the same thing as debating so what's the point of this?

 

I don't know what you mean by micro and macro evolution, but I think the fossil records are plenty of evidence to support evolution.

 

Microevolution is the change over time within a species, macroevolution is the change of a species over time into another species.

GO KELSIE :awesome:

Yeah that's not really true, re-read through the thread and you'll see some people did make fun of Christians, not only in this thread but in others too.

 

Also, making fun of the other side is not the same thing as debating so what's the point of this?

 

 

 

Microevolution is the change over time within a species, macroevolution is the change of a species over time into another species.

 

why do we have to be so politically correct, why do we have to make everyone happy I don't know. This thread is about discussing Evolution and Creationism, can we just discuss these issues and the facts without people getting offended, I don't give a fuck if someone insults athiests or any non-believers, because I belive in Free Speech. If someone wants to joke around and make fun of someone elses beliefs I really couldn't care less.

 

So I just want to say to everyone on this thread you can discuss Evolution and Creationism and tell us why you believe what you believe, but to whine like little children just because someone made fun of someone elses beliefs is not only childish but it harms our Freedom of Speech.

 

and I will say it right here and right now without any shame, that all religions are bullshit, you can have whatever personal faith you want, but all religions are BULLSHIT!

Bullshit :heart:

Well for one you lied when you said that to howyousawtheworld, and two, I'm not whining. I'm just pointing out what an intolerant hypocrite you are.

I'm not a believer in God but You are being totally biased towards creationism and not accepting that maybe some people believe in that.

It's times like these I wish we could like posts.

Who the fuck starts a discussion thread and then isn't open to discussion?

Both beliefs are in the thread title, surely people can say which one they believe in without people shit saying to them.

Well for one you lied when you said that to howyousawtheworld, and two, I'm not whining. I'm just pointing out what an intolerant hypocrite you are.

 

I didn’t lie as you so eloquent put it, I just don’t remember ever insulting Christians or anyone else on this thread. And as for us being intolerant hypocrites, the point that I was trying to make in my previous post was that it is okay for people to say whatever they want, and they shouldn’t keep quiet just because what they are saying offends someone. How can I be intolerant when everyone I have ever known has been religious, my family and friends are all religious? How can I be a hypocrite if I say that you can make fun of me and my beliefs all you want? All I am trying to say is that our, and I mean all of us, that our Freedom of Speech shouldn’t be pushed aside because someone is offended by what we say, and btw the previous post wasn’t addressed to you specifically, it was addressed to everyone.

Freedom of speech doesn't count when it infringes on someone's rights or freedoms.

Who the fuck starts a discussion thread and then isn't open to discussion?

Both beliefs are in the thread title, surely people can say which one they believe in without people shit saying to them.

 

I never said I wasn't open to discussion, I love and encourage discussion. I am just upset because instead of having discussions we are arguing about what we can or cannot say, there are people on this thread who are not stating the facts, they are just pulling the “oh you are intolerant” card because someone made fun of their beliefs.

I love how you're assuming things about us, it really makes you look smart.

Freedom of speech doesn't count when it infringes on someone's rights or freedoms.

 

How is me saying “Creationists like Sarah Palin are stupid” infringing on your rights?

Who the fuck starts a discussion thread and then isn't open to discussion?

Both beliefs are in the thread title, surely people can say which one they believe in without people shit saying to them.

 

+1