The called Spanish Revolution movement

[chuck kottke]

Perhaps you're right Bart - non-violence can win the day, if the cameras are rolling so-to-speak. One can't help but want to push back against corrupt and inept governments, but to be effective is to win the higher moral ground in such matters.

[Darlene_Ihnfsa]

 

Sucks when your socialist paradise runs out of money to give away.

 

Time to raise taxes on the rich again? ;)

i wouldn't say again since they raised taxes to the normal class which are seeing their salaries cut.

the big companies are yet getting benefits, they share it with their elite but not cutting the cost of their services, or raise salaries to their workers instead they are talking about massive unemployement again.

 

surprise is those protests didn't raised 3 or 2 years ago, oh wait some media were warning but the social mass was stopped cause the social goverment simply accused of anti-patriotism to those who disagreed with their non-economical measures and warned about the problems to come.

 

we need to pay a lot now to those who had bought our big national debts, that sure will take more than the rise cost of owning a home, and we'll have to pay it yes or yes, via higher taxes.

 

the problem with that is, that is our use, instead of rent, spaniards prefer to own a home, so people are not brave to move home earlier and get their living sooner, so youngster at times live in a bubble where they have their needs covered and have chance of some extras and they aren't asked any in return. that's been a matter discussed in the country years ago since that tendency started because it was worrying. i'm bored of hearing the same sentence over and over among some people of around 50 which have kids around 30 now "i don't want my kids to miss anything". and most those ended with kids with no future, that grow but don't mature and felt like trapped Peter Pan.

that said there's no politic to allow youngsters to get a job at a young age and make it possible to work and study at same time, instead you are given the chosen between studies or work, which closes many good doors in the proffesional future.

 

if people can join and resist for a common idea, why back then when the homes were raising up all the ones trying to get a home they didn't stopped buying for some months so would had forced the cost to go low? no instead of that they fall for the marketing seduction that brought the need to get a plasma tv that costed 3000€ then and so (that's like 3 times an average month salary). the one i could totally blame of that crisis are the marketing, is the engine that worked perfectly. also the banks should had been more serious and restrict when giving credit in some cases. now many banks own a lot of homes that they can't sell, and means many people are out their homes survived with the 'paro' but that was over months ago.

it sicken me when i see so many high class tv series, seems no media is showing that reality of many spaniards that had seen their incomes cut and seem they have no path to go on any longer. many banks should had crashed and be bought by others, but instead the goverment forced a rescue which just messed the situation even more, and we all with no jobs, with salaries cut shall pay that rescue via more taxes and higher ones, and see how many invesments are stopped.

 

also goverment didn't care and promote people to had been saving up in the good times.

ugh nobody learnt the Joseph thing with Egyptians in the bible? if people would had saved 30% back in the good years, they would be able to survive that crises, as still they would had been some money, only problem it would had meant to wait a bit to get some new machines as HD tv and so, but seriously there's any vital need of that??.

problem associated with all what happened here, it was the panic period when few who had money to invest didn't do so cause they fear to lose it. also i remember last summer when nobody wanted to go on holidays and economy minister had to tell people to go on with their lives and go on holidays as normally. (that's the few chance for youngsters to get a first job ever, if nobody goes on holidays, then there's no chance of job, if nobody buy a meal in a restaurant, the restaurant can't pay their workers).

 

problem is goverment had been denying those real economic problems, they didn't promote or help families to save up, they are not taking any austerity measures for themselves -any politician is secured a big salary for life just for working 7 years as politicians, when a normal worker needs 30 years to get a regular salary when they retire, is it fair?

 

as local elections went it feels they are setting the puzzle to repeat bad events of our History.

 

people is feeling very tense because economy is a big matter and seems politicians, business man or any that could change the situation are doing nothing to make it better, also politicians here the last years have been messing with other matters, so it ends as if you agree with A you shall agree with B & C too, if not, you seem to be going against it all.

 

almost nobody is doing a self-criticism of the situation, everybody is looking for a solution but are not willing to change mind and the doing to be sure that won't happen.

 

i still feel meh about it cause i think, ok and bla bla party will get the coutry to get job and be productive again, but why for, for how long? i see it repeating in a 10 years time again cause no structure changes will be done in the system to ban the priviledges of politicians and some others, so still it'll feel as they are the greek godness and we the poor humans that they come to visit from time to time.

[bart]

I spoke to some Spanish friends yesterday, and suggested they consider not paying all the money back to the banks, as yes.. they may have took the loans, but the banks should have also accpeted there was a risk when it comes to geting re payments... and make a deal with the banks to only pay what they can afford back, on the promise both never get themselves into this again. People can not carry on suffering the way they are over here.

 

This did not go down to well...

[bart]

DP

[Saffire]

Perhaps you're right Bart - non-violence can win the day,

 

Ah, but you see, this is precisely what governments teach children - nonviolent protests are always best!

 

I wonder why they prefer their tax-livestock believe this? ;)

 

Yeah, I'll sit here and get beaten and bloodied without defending myself. Sounds like a good plan.

[bart]

Ah, but you see, this is precisely what governments teach children - nonviolent protests are always best!

 

I wonder why they prefer their tax-livestock believe this? ;)

 

Yeah, I'll sit here and get beaten and bloodied without defending myself. Sounds like a good plan.

 

Hmm

 

Violence in protests in Spain is a very sensitive issue for both sides.

[Darlene_Ihnfsa]

so they are still on the streets, in Murcia they took 40 full carts/trolleys (i'm not sure if that's the word) for carrying food and they didn't pay a thing in the shop.

 

they've been protesting in the entrance of the congress in madrid, and in some cities -oh mystery all them now governed by the main opposition party, right wing- the days when the change of elected charges should happen, when that is forbidden by law.

 

they also entered the federation of enterprises chairmen, this one cause they are against we have 40 different kind of working contracts, and also against the high rate of unemployement.

 

in other news, police has jailed 3 people for attacking websites (anonumous) -ministries embassies-.... they planned to cut the service of the political parties and electoral website on the elections day- they could be in jail for 3 years after the trial. i wonder if that is much linked to 15-M movement but for what i've seen they are also pissed by the situation, is not just lack of work, cut of salaries or rise of taxes, also cut of rights.

 

also the comerces near the protesting square in madrid had asked the goverment to do something, since in that situation they have no customers.

 

one more week they say they will leave the camping this sunday, it'll soon make 1 month, they still aren't sure if they will create a political party or not, they are organizing assambleys in the neigbourhoods which are bringing some curious projects.

[bart]

Everybody is being asked to make as much noise as possible tonight, between 21.30 and 22.00

 

Oh those pots and pans...

[Darlene_Ihnfsa]

so officially madrid camp is left, thought some people are there and there's a wooden information building, the main organizer won't support them but the wooden building.

 

at the same time yesterday the re-elected mayor was insulted at the doors of his home while he was walking his dog with his family -it weirdly resembles the attack that the culture representant had to suffer in my region this december in which he ended in hospital for a week and had to have surgery- cause he didn't allow a concert planned on the gay parade this june.

 

meanwhile in barcelona yesterday the park near the parliament has been taken by the protesters and today they didn't allow the politicians to enter there, -they throw them stuff- the goverment had to access via a helicopter, and i think yet now they don't know how they can leave the building.

 

in madrid and also barcelona the protesters have gone to support the people that will be forced to leave their homes cause they can't afford any longer the mortgages or loans to pay the home, so to stop the be banned from their homes. in madrid today they were doing so, while the communist party leader went to join, and while he was interviewed the protesters were bothering and throw him a bottle of water and he have to leave.

 

so while the organizers try to walk distantly than the rage protesters and are focusing on writing projects to improve the democracy and have small parliaments in the neigbourhood, some others are using the power of the mass to do what they fancy to do to smash and destroy.

(among all those events i heard news that some people were missing after the camping :| )

 

also political news, 3 members of the constitutional jury have left cause their permission to be there ended 6 months ago and they hadn't been renewed, but the president don't allow them to do so, also other big charges of the State hadn't been relected yet (those are 'elected' by the parties not the citizens or the self rules of the jury-) (NOTE that vocabulary may not be too accurate, i don't study law english).

 

i'm seeing it may end as a some spanish novels i've read recently. :|

[bart]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YcmvzRvsf8g

[bart]

the angry people are still in the camp....

[Darlene_Ihnfsa]

angry people you mean the indignados or the squatters?

 

seems it's calmed now, just they are stopping police to notice and take people off their homes which they can't pay -i don't like how our system don't allow people who can't pay their homes to give them and then the debt is closed, instead bank takes it you get banned of your home and you yet have to pay it- they said they'll be back on protesting in september, oh surprise surprise they will go on holidays then.

 

i wonder how many of the non-elected leaders will turn into politicians.

 

there are rumours some public people -non politicians per se- will use it on their benefit and form a party to get the votes... i would prefer that honestly only democracia real ya start a party on their own, not with other people getting involved in it.

[bart]

angry people you mean the indignados or the squatters?

 

seems it's calmed now, just they are stopping police to notice and take people off their homes which they can't pay -i don't like how our system don't allow people who can't pay their homes to give them and then the debt is closed, instead bank takes it you get banned of your home and you yet have to pay it- they said they'll be back on protesting in september, oh surprise surprise they will go on holidays then.

 

i wonder how many of the non-elected leaders will turn into politicians.

 

there are rumours some public people -non politicians per se- will use it on their benefit and form a party to get the votes... i would prefer that honestly only democracia real ya start a party on their own, not with other people getting involved in it.

 

I think more than anything, what has happend there has been a " Real Change " in how a significant amount of people feel.

 

Look how many people turned out for the protests on June 19, this to me shows support for the camps.

 

I will say more about the type of people in another post.

 

I wish the goverment and the other party (PP) would work with each other, instead of against each other, as next year there will be another direction, the PP will win, and just make it harder for the people that are struggling by making more cuts. If they put their differences behind them, and worked together with time, we may just come out the other side, and hopefully learnt our lessons.

 

In time, we could all be in the position to see if we can all really afford the euro, or go to back to the old currency and live within our means, I am sure in the end we all will be in a better position if we accepted to live within our means.

[Darlene_Ihnfsa]

main problem to cause the current situation is the goverment had denied we had any economical crisis for more than 2 years, if they would had reckon it then we would had been able to solve it a lot better and sooner, instead they kept wasting money and denying a fact that has harmed everybody now.

 

second bad thing they did is to control banks, if a bank is in debt it shall crash and another bank buy it instead of passing the huge debt among all citizens, it just had made every citizen poorer.

 

i doubt they will get to a common point for the benefit of the country -they hadn't had done so in more than 7 years, why they'll do so now?-, pp will have to do the cuts the other one hadn't done, and it'll sure harm everybody. but no matter which party they won't reduce their salaries.

 

in that point i totally agree with the protesters, i can agree with their first main manifesto totally, specially the parts where they ask to control and restrict and make responsable the politicians and allow citizens to have a more active part in politics.

 

i remember when pp was in goverment they had the worry of the % citizens are able to save up every month (around 30% they wanted), the current goverment hadn't care for that, imo it plays a big part in the crises we have.

 

everybody has been living a lot over their real money, i can't understand how people bought 3000€ plasma tv that easily when it means 3 months of a regular salary of 1000€ a month. :| (not to add here the fact that paying a home meant a whole monthly salary in most cases which made couple to force both to work) if when home cost was going up, people would had stopped buying it should had come cheaper, as has happened with the crises.

is not only the big home owning debt what made the hole, but also the lotta small ones too, imo.

 

goverments and banks had allowed all that, but since when had we lost our sense aswell?

i don't go buy something cause the marketing engine tell me to buy it again and again on the adverts.

 

it all had caused it all falls like domino pieces put in a line.

 

i hope it'll bring changes we need and it regenerate politics, but i don't see politicians caring much to change to what people are asking them to, just to use it on their benefits which is not fair, fair is to listen and do what the people have to say and is reasonable, not to use their words.

[Saffire]

main problem to cause the current situation is the goverment had denied we had any economical crisis for more than 2 years, if they would had reckon it then we would had been able to solve it a lot better and sooner, instead they kept wasting money and denying a fact that has harmed everybody now.

 

second bad thing they did is to control banks, if a bank is in debt it shall crash and another bank buy it instead of passing the huge debt among all citizens, it just had made every citizen poorer.

 

Oh Darlene, I could kiss you now! :D

 

You are absolutely right, and this is what all governments are saying to their people - "If you don't save the banks, the economy will become so bad that you will starve and everyone will lose their job!" This is one of the biggest lies in history.

 

That's like saying "If GM goes bankrupt, there won't be any cars for us to drive!"

[bart]

Breaking news, the police have taken back the Placa in Barcelona...

 

More to follow, but they had sent 500 police to remove 40 people from the camp :D

 

I am sure people will try and return tomorrow after they finish cleaning it !

 

They may be problems !

[Saffire]

Oh those police will do whatever is necessary to keep their paychecks flowing! ;)

[bart]

It was atually police 600 in total.

M-15 Movement, had already moved on, as their message had already been made, there was mainly hard core protestors around 30-40 people staying around at night time camping.

 

and around 15 people living in the trees. :D

 

To join them there was the people of Barcelona who were mainly enjoying a night out, and the placa became a new place to have a party in the middle of the night, I guess here there was a real health and saftey risk, as when you get drunk people you may always have fights between them !

[Darlene_Ihnfsa]

Oh Darlene, I could kiss you now! :D

 

You are absolutely right, and this is what all governments are saying to their people - "If you don't save the banks, the economy will become so bad that you will starve and everyone will lose their job!" This is one of the biggest lies in history.

 

That's like saying "If GM goes bankrupt, there won't be any cars for us to drive!"

well you can explain it to my fellow spaniards instead, some don't understand.

they see it like we shall rescue banks cause many people will lose their homes if not.

:confused: and it is true, but is better to make the whole country poorer?

 

it all is making me very angry with the generation of around my dad age, they got the chance to get in a good position when 'democracy' returned to the country, for what?

we can't take a place now, and are the ones blamed for be extremely consumist and too poshy to accept a low payed work, but what? were our parents and their generation to tell us to study a lot and have high expectations for the future, they shouldn't blame us, instead them for educate us all wrongly.

[Saffire]

In economics, the only thing that matters is the production of goods and services that people want - cars, houses, HDTVs, computers, clothes, food, etc.

 

Banks produce nothing. They only exist to keep accounts/records and to facilitate loans.

 

When the price of something is too high (houses, debt, education, stocks, etc), the market will correct it, and the price will fall. It is natural for owners of these things to complain and blame other people (in this case, blame the young people).

 

Defaulting on debt is sometimes an intelligent, wise thing to do. Why pay interest for the rest of your life, when you get nothing in return?

 

The Spanish and Greeks would be wise to learn the history of Romania, and what happened to the president there in 1989... after he added too much debt to the country, and tried to force the people to pay for it.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolae_Ceau%C8%99escu

 

In the 1980s, Ceaușescu ordered the export of much of the country's agricultural and industrial production in order to repay its debts. The resulting domestic shortages made the everyday life of Romanians a fight for survival as food rationing was introduced and heating, gas and electricity black-outs became the rule. During the 1980s, there was a steady decrease in the living standard, especially the availability and quality of food and general goods in stores. The official explanation was that the country was paying its debts and people accepted the suffering, believing it to be for a short time only and for the ultimate good.

 

...

 

On Christmas Day, 25 December, the two were tried in a brief show-trial and sentenced to death by a military court on charges ranging from illegal gathering of wealth to genocide, and were executed in Târgoviște. The video of the trial shows that, after sentencing, they had their hands tied behind their backs and were led outside the building to be executed.

 

National debt is a very dangerous thing.

[Darlene_Ihnfsa]

So after yesterday's reunion in Madrid doing a march from various near Madrid cities -and after trying to stop several evictions -and some detentions- in the whole country protesting the previous weeks, started a movement to culturize on neigbourhood assembleys, and an incident in Puerta del Sol after some pro-life people decided to use the square as protest too-, they have decided to start a march to Brussels and seem to have the support of Joseph Stiglitz, who has wished them good luck and had attended today's assembly in Madrid.

 

source (in spanish)

[Saffire]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stiglitz

 

He is also the former Senior Vice President and Chief Economist of the World Bank.

 

"The Roaring Nineties: A New History of the World's Most Prosperous Decade" (2003) continues his argument on how misplaced faith in free-market ideology led to the global economic issues of today, with a perceptive focus on US policies.

 

Mr Stiglitz is a member of the elite (World Bank), so he doesn't want countries to default on their debts - it would be bad for the banks. He wants taxes to go higher so his fellow bankers will continue to grow richer on interest payments.

 

But "Los Indignados" don't understand this... they would be much better off if Spain defaults and stops paying interest. It's very common sense - why pay tax money on interest when you can use it to pay for bridges, doctors, schools, etc? Even socialists should understand this!

[bart]

The Angry people have taken the plazas again !

 

Elections in November... Zapertero thinks it will be better Spain starts of to a new start of the start of 2012.

 

its gonna be worse, as the conservative party will win, for the poor people they will suffer more as public services will be cut back even more. Also there is a part of spain that may not reconise them as the goverment !

[Darlene_Ihnfsa]

the police has removed people from Puerta del Sol and the underground hadn't work in that stop yesterday.

the president has stoppped his holidays and is talking with other party leaders.

some experts are saying the elections shall happen before november, and again the debt is higher crossed the dramatic 400 or is very near to it, already some hospital services will be cut at least along this summer in Barcelona to reduce the expenses 1 million euros is said, that include primary service in at least 20 community health services and it may get extended in more areas and longer time.

 

i honestly doubt any politician will help much to fix the situation.

as things are seems many cuts shall be done with the anger and poor situation in most families.

[Saffire]

i honestly doubt any politician will help much to fix the situation.

as things are seems many cuts shall be done with the anger and poor situation in most families.

 

The politicians in Spain really only have two choices over the next year:

 

1. Cut government spending (government workers lose their jobs, which raises unemployment).

 

2. Raise taxes (private workers lose their jobs, which raises unemployment).

 

A bad choice to make, but if I were in Spain now I'd rather work for the government than the private sector.

 

This problem is not unique to Spain, of course. The US, UK, Italy, Greece, etc all have the same issues. If you have savings, buy gold and silver coins.