And if workers get paid a little more, they can then afford to buy the goods they help make, and then stimulate the slow economy, improving profits as well as improving their lives.

 

Chuck, if labor costs more, employers can afford to hire fewer people, and the final price of goods and services will increase by a commensurate amount.

Chuck, if labor costs more, employers can afford to hire fewer people, and the final price of goods and services will increase by a commensurate amount.

 

I've heard that old saw before, and it's a dull one. If labor got paid more, then the economy would pick up and grow, because laborers could then afford to purchase the goods and services they make. Henry Ford realized this, and he was about as businesses oriented as it gets. And if the uber-wealthy would pay their fair share of taxes, then our government would function well enough again to act as the arbiter of fair play and improve social goods that help lift people up. And we could cut the defense budget in the area of our nuclear warheads, since this is one thing all of humanity would be better off without, especially us, since it's sucking so much money out of the productive economy and may actually lessen our security. I would instead rather have a peace investment, a true means to produce greater global security though improving economies the world over.

News covering Occupy Wall Street protest at Foley Square, and the advertiser at the top is none other than Bank of America. :laugh3: The giant loophole in capitalism that Michael Moore talks about, big enough to drive a truck through - there it is.

'Occupy' Protesters Rally At Foley Square - NY1.com

 

~Second anniversary of Citizen's United, the court case allowing unlimited cash to flow into political races, and a sure race to the bottom for our democracy until we stem that flow.~

Popped down to OM yesterday... they had a stall at one point giving out free chocolate. Two council workers along with 8-10 cops were dispatched and trashed the wooden 'structure'

 

I am amuse

Popped down to OM yesterday... they had a stall at one point giving out free chocolate. Two council workers along with 8-10 cops were dispatched and trashed the wooden 'structure'

 

I am amuse

 

Does Australia have the same economic inequality as the USA does? I wasn't aware it was that bad down there I thought the middle class was well and truly alive in Aus.

>Glad to see Melbourne having an Occupy Movement!! What barbarity on the part of the councilmen and the cops, if there wasn't any provocation, there ought not be such hostility; sounds like they just wanted to make a "statement", which as often as not backfires, as it should against those who refuse to represent the will of the people.

> The root problem to all this is what a few with the money do to influence politics and damage our economies - I listened again to Lawrence Lessig's dialog with Charlie Rose, and I think Lessig is right - it's in all our interest to get right to the bottom of the problem, and take the big money out of politics - either have publicly funded elections or a voucher system to each citizen, so we can support candidates as the powerful base, and the big money can't weigh in.

Here's the re-broadcast, in case anyone's interested in watching it: Charlie Rose - Lawrence Lessig

One court case that exceeds them all in opening the floodgates of cash into campaigns:Sean Siperstein: Citizens United v. We the People

New from Occupy:

Occupy Wall Street | NYC Protest for World Revolution

& I agree, half the eligible voter in this country don't vote, largely because they think it won't make a difference, and how can it, when the big money rigs the whole system? Time for amendments, time for our movements to grow and coalesce around the central root causes.

The result of the murky loans and economic shock, millions have lost their homes - Occupy Brooklyn members rallied in defense of those being foreclosed on today, direction action taken to disrupt and discredit the auctioning of foreclosed homes in Brooklyn neighborhoods:Occupy Wall Street | NYC Protest for World Revolution

Does Australia have the same economic inequality as the USA does? I wasn't aware it was that bad down there I thought the middle class was well and truly alive in Aus.

 

Not to the same degree, but people are still hurting here. Many are also worried that we're heading down the same track as the US.

Occupy activists in Oakland throw bottles, metal pipes, rocks, spray cans, burning flares and "improvised explosive devices" at the police.

 

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_19843262

 

Just when I thought these people couldn't get any more pathetic. :facepalm:

:rolleyes: Face it - you were hoping they would, so you could trounce on the movement. We know you .1%'ers. :P

One might liken it to the historic Boston mob, just shy of revolutionary times. True, it is the non-violent movements that gain the most traction with the public, & it is hard to have sympathy with those turning to violence - except for the fact that there may be operatives in the crowd, stirring up violence to make the movement look bad - that does happen as well.

Actions are one thing, but the reality remains the same - gross income inequities are untenable, the buying of elections by the highest bidders is obscene in a democracy.

you get all kinds of operatives.. We had this in Spain for sure , andthey had it in Italy as well...

Turns out the story gets even better. These "activists" broke into City Hall, where they burned flags, broke into an electrical box and damaged several art structures, including a recycled art exhibit created by children.

 

They also walked to the vacant convention center, where they started tearing down perimeter fencing and "destroying construction equipment" shortly before 3 p.m.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-01-28/occupy-oakland-protests/52852280/1

 

Remind me again how this is a peaceful, nonviolent protest?

 

 

These "people" are not protestors. They are not activists. They are cowards - notice how they hide their faces while causing nothing but destruction to the community.

 

Shame on both of you trying to excuse their behaviors by insinuating these were simply the actions of some "operatives."

When the government turns on the people, the people will turn right back on them.

Hm, one wonders exactly who they are, and why they are doing this... If operatives were to try and do anything to a movement to discredit it, this would surly be one way to achieve just that. It's a shame the truth can't be told, it seems considering the possibility of what does often happen within movements is somehow shameful? :dozey: This in the land of free speech..

But if it is part of the protest movement, I can only say that they are making a mistake. The American Flag is symbolic of many things, but especially it is symbolic of the rights we cherish as citizens, and public property shouldn't be simply broken into and vandalized - that's just wrong - it's the property of all of us, not the target where the real problems lay.

>The facts remain, the crime of the century perpetrated by many in power, and the criminals remain in seats of power, revolving between firms and government. Are we to simply ignore the obvious, and allow corruption to eat up our nation and the world? I think not.

I visited my neighbor today, and he and I take polar opposite political views on many things, but we both agree on the need for inclusion of the underlying missing rules, currently lacking in our system:

 

1.) Limit the political contribution to a candidate's race to an amount affordable by all citizens - under $200. Nothing over or outside this at all, and no corporate money.

2.) Campaigning can start no sooner than 9 months before an election.

3.) A panel, composed of citizens selected at random, to pre-screen all political messages before their air for honesty and accuracy of their content.

4.) When elected, those new representatives must relinquish all campaign funds to either pay off the debt, or pay into the general coffers. No more war-chests.

5.) Term limits - 2 terms maximum.

6.) Once an officeholder is out of office, they are permanently barred from any lobbying or consulting jobs.

I fully agree that vandalism of property is a horrible way to get one's message across. It makes any sort of point you are trying to make be taken much less seriously, and it's annoying as hell (and you're vandalizing property and bothering people that may have nothing to do with the problems you're upset about, they just have to work there and are doing their daily job like everyone else).

 

As for burning the American flag, it's not my choice for protest method, and I think often it's done purely for shock value rather than to actually, you know, make a point. But I'm not going to stop someone from burning a flag, 'cause it's a piece of cloth. I'd rather have them damage a piece of cloth than break windows and steal people's things.

 

I support what the "Occupy" movement is protesting, the problem is, I've said to other people in discussion, I think people in the States are on protest burnout. We had the Tea Party, we have this, we turn on the TV every day and see all the protests around the world for reasons that may or may not be much more valid than whatever we're protesting, and everyone's just tired of it. Add in that some people at protests are there just to say they were there and part of something, and the unfortunate stereotypes and whackjobs that get tied to a protest (which is always bad if it's the people on the side you disagree with doing the protesting. When it's your side, however, free speech for all!).

 

Which is a shame, because I think nothing is more frightening to the powers that be than people taking to the streets and delivering a strong message that they won't take the crap they're dealing with lying down anymore. There is a good, genuine movement within the Occupy protestors, they just need to figure out a way to properly harness that anger and energy into productive measures that will actually get the politicians to do something.

 

They need to start fighting harder for stuff like what chuck mentioned to become reality. Ideas which I fully agree with.

 

3.) A panel, composed of citizens selected at random, to pre-screen all political messages before their air for honesty and accuracy of their content.

4.) When elected, those new representatives must relinquish all campaign funds to either pay off the debt, or pay into the general coffers. No more war-chests.

 

These, however, are new to me. I really like #4, I think that's an excellent idea, and #3 sounds interesting in theory, I just don't know how well it'd work in practice (what's "honest" and "accurate" to some people can vary wildly). It'd be neat to do a test run of that idea to see how it would go over.

Occupy Wellington were finally kicked out, which is great. The majority of the camp was just homeless people who had found a reason to sleep in the park...

has this happened anywhere else?

 

I support what the "Occupy" movement is protesting, the problem is, I've said to other people in discussion, I think people in the States are on protest burnout

Which is a shame, because I think nothing is more frightening to the powers that be than people taking to the streets and delivering a strong message that they won't take the crap they're dealing with lying down anymore. There is a good, genuine movement within the Occupy protestors, they just need to figure out a way to properly harness that anger and energy into productive measures that will actually get the politicians to do something.

 

They need to start fighting harder for stuff like what chuck mentioned to become reality. Ideas which I fully agree with.

 

 

 

These, however, are new to me. I really like #4, I think that's an excellent idea, and #3 sounds interesting in theory, I just don't know how well it'd work in practice (what's "honest" and "accurate" to some people can vary wildly). It'd be neat to do a test run of that idea to see how it would go over.

> #4 is Leonard's idea - I have to say as well it's a pretty cool idea, and would level the playing field a bit between incumbents and new office-seekers. #3 is my thought on how to deal with the negative ads that are mostly emotionally charged lies, at least some sort of vetting by a group of citizens that are chosen at random would help. Honest and accurate are subjective terms; what makes more sense?

Occupy Wellington were finally kicked out, which is great. The majority of the camp was just homeless people who had found a reason to sleep in the park...

has this happened anywhere else?

> LOL - well, perhaps this is the reason for Occupy - people have lost their homes, hence they're trying to send a message that they need some help to get them through a rough patch? I'm not sure the same scams were perpetrated in Wellington as were being done by our corporate "banks" here though...:thinking: If times were better, none of this would be necessary - I am glad there are occupiers everywhere, given the state of affairs in the world today.

> #4 is Leonard's idea - I have to say as well it's a pretty cool idea, and would level the playing field a bit between incumbents and new office-seekers.

 

Ah.

 

Exactly. Plus, these people say they want to help the public, they should, literally, put their money where their mouths are. They wouldn't have that campaign money if it weren't for the voters who supported them, so they should use it to help the people who got them to where they are.

 

#3 is my thought on how to deal with the negative ads that are mostly emotionally charged lies, at least some sort of vetting by a group of citizens that are chosen at random would help. Honest and accurate are subjective terms; what makes more sense? [/color]

 

Hm. "Fact-checkers", maybe? They can have someone out there whose sole job it is to compile all the actual facts of the voting records and statements and such (which can be found online or in newspapers or in the record keeping systems) of every candidate running.

 

Then they can put those facts about every candidate on sheets and give a copy out to a group of people comprised of varying political affiliations. The group can then look at each candidate's ads, look at the information they've been given, and go from there. And the results can be shared with the public after that.

 

Or something along that line. I do like your idea, definitely. I fully agree it's high time we had someone come along to help change the way political ads are done so that the actual truth about a candidate can get out there and we stop seeing so much smear campaigning. I just want to make sure that the method we use to do that doesn't cause as much, if not more, confusion, corruption, and political bias as the ads themselves do.

I can't believe this 'movement' is still going lol - should be interesting once the elections come around..

^ Dear Berrywoman, I see that many onlookers get distracted by the general picture that the mainstream media are painting of OWS. That's ok I guess, since there ARE many outcasts gathering around Occupy. And it's not only the romantic outcasts without a clue, but also the smelly ones, the lost ones, the druggies and homeless (and utterly teethless, I can tell you).

 

Those are the ones that mercilessly hit their drums in Zucotti Park pretty much 24/7 last fall, or bring their specific socio-/or even psychopathy with them. Since the driving spirits behind all this try to create a sustainably different alternative of organising society, they don't shoo those outcasts away, but try to get in contact with them, which is often very frustrating of course, but problems don't go away just because you don't look at them, right? If you care, I can tell of a situation with heroin-addicts in Frankfurt, which is quite amazing, it doesn't have a real happy end...but it's still amazing.

 

 

Anyway, mainstream media presents pretty much only those people, and some camps have consisted of those people alone from start. So that's definitely one side of OWS, but it's one side of society in general, so ultimately it's not OWS but planet earth 2012.

 

If you look carefully, you'll see lots of elderly citizens supporting the rallies, really normal looking folks, quite many I would have called rather square in my more snot-nosed years of youth. Should give you something to think about?!

 

Do people still not get what it's all about? It's ethics, plain and simple. And trying to intelligently(=sustainably) recreate ourselves who we are those funny animals with self-reflectory brains, who just reach the height of an era*, of which the necessary impact assessments didn't quite catch up with the speed of its technical developement. (*industrialisation, that is)

 

The driving heads behind this and many other such movements around the globe are gathering for exactly that impact assessment, no matter if the world notices or not at this moment. And they start local projects to bring their ideas to life. Those ideas aren't even very new, but it's only now, that they slowly get global attention.

 

 

Here my answers as to what (not only!) Occupy is about:

 

-sustainability (in every respect, it's the core parameter, imo)

-ethics (women, fair trade/economy, ecology, third world, education, working conditions and wages, governing, etc...)

-think global, act local (the more people participate in and take over responsibility for their local communities all over the world, the better, easier, more self- represented, self-reliant politics and governing will get. Free access to a free Internet is crucial for this developement and made it thrive in the first place.)

...guess the new era dawning could be called the sustainabilisation/ sustainable era.

 

I think the necessity of applying those 'things' into our lives will be much more apparent (to those who still don't get it) by the end of this year. :)

 

 

*Retires to her little project of 'occupying' public space in her little town, where there's going to be a community garden from this spring on, with people from over 12 nations/ four continents and all age-groups growing their veggies together. Gosh, they've already talked more with each other the last two months than they have the previous 10 years. And it's constructive talk, they talk about their cultures, they realise that the Somalis, the Turks, the Polish, be they Muslims, Christians or Atheists, etc, are able to do something together.

 

 

Addendum: Do you guys who are sceptical of this movement's impact think that Barack Obama's speech on the State of the Union where he more than tackled social issues this time, that this would've been possible pre September 2011? Before that it was all about raising the debt ceiling, you know... And the Tar Sands Pipeline? Obama has rejected it on TransCanada's favourised route, which experts say means it's not gonna happen at all.

OWS and its people have made that easier, too. I think the discourse in the USA has changed quite a bit over the last half year.

 

8th December 2013: great piece by David Simon http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/08/david-simon-capitalism-marx-two-americas-wire