Scottish Independence: Cameron and Salmond strike referendum deal

[Guest howyousawtheworld]

 

 

A deal setting out terms for a Scottish independence referendum has been signed by Prime Minister David Cameron and First Minister Alex Salmond.

 

The agreement, struck in Edinburgh, has paved the way for a vote in autumn 2014, with a single Yes/No question on Scotland leaving the UK.

 

It will also allow 16 and 17-year-olds to take part in the ballot.

 

The SNP secured a mandate to hold the referendum after its landslide Scottish election win last year.

 

The UK government, which has responsibility over constitutional issues, will grant limited powers to the Scottish Parliament to hold a legal referendum, under a mechanism called Section 30.

 

The deal will also commit both governments to working together constructively in the best interests of the people of Scotland, whatever the outcome of the referendum.

 

Mr Salmond said the agreement would mean a referendum "made in Scotland", while the prime minister said keeping the United Kingdom together was his number one priority.

 

The deal will provide for:

 

A statutory order to be legislated at Westminster, granting Holyrood powers to hold a single-question independence referendum by the end of 2014 and covering other issues like campaign broadcasts.

 

A "memorandum of agreement" to be signed by political leaders confirming the details of the referendum will be settled at Holyrood.

 

A significant role for the Electoral Commission watchdog in advising on the wording of the question, the running of the referendum and areas including campaign finance.

 

A possible second question on greater powers has been dropped.

 

Speaking after the deal was signed at the headquarters of the Scottish government, St Andrew's House, the prime minister told BBC News: "This is the right decision for Scotland.

Real arguments

 

But it's also right for the United Kingdom that there is going to be one, simple, straightforward question about whether Scotland wants to stay in the United Kingdom or separate itself from the United Kingdom, and that referendum has to be held before the end of 2014.

 

 

"I always wanted to show respect to the people of Scotland - they voted for a party that wanted to have a referendum, I've made that referendum possible and made sure that it is decisive, it is legal and it is fair."

 

Mr Cameron added: "Now we've dealt with the process, we should get on with the real arguments, and I passionately believe Scotland will be better off in the United Kingdom but also, crucially, the United Kingdom will be better off with Scotland."

 

Mr Salmond said the deal, which he described as the "Edinburgh Agreement", paved the way for the most important political decision Scotland had made in several hundred years.

 

He added: "It is in that sense a historic day for Scotland and I think a major step forward in Scotland's home rule journey.

 

"The Edinburgh Agreement means that we will have a referendum in two years' time which will be built and made in the Scottish Parliament on behalf of the Scottish people. I think that is a substantial and important step forward."

 

Mr Salmond said the respective campaigns could now move on from discussion over process and "get on with the substantive arguments".

 

He went on: "Do I believe that independence will win this campaign? Yes I do. And I believe we will win it by setting out a positive vision for a better future for our country, both economically and, crucially, also socially.

 

"It is that vision of a prosperous and compassionate society, a confident society moving forward in Scotland, which will carry the day."

 

When asked whether he had an exact date in mind for the referendum, and whether he would share it, Mr Salmond replied: "Yes, and no".

 

He said the Scottish government had still to publish the results of its consultation on the referendum, which would happen in the "near future".

 

The deal was negotiated between Scottish Secretary Michael Moore, a Liberal Democrat MP, and Scotland's deputy first minister, Nicola Sturgeon.

 

Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont said she was pleased a deal had been reached, adding: "Alex Salmond has the right to ask the question and now people have right to answer it.

 

"But we cannot allow this debate to distract from some of the real problems being faced by families in Scotland, things the SNP could act on now."

 

"Alex Salmond offers people only one solution to Scotland's problems - a referendum on independence - but his timetable makes us wait another two years to have our say."

 

 

 

 

What happens now?

 

October 2012

 

Prime Minister David Cameron and First Minister Alex Salmond sign the referendum agreement

A Section 30 order transferring the rights to hold a referendum to Holyrood

The findings of the Scottish government's Your Scotland, Your Referendum consultation will be published

 

Autumn/winter 2012

 

Electoral Commission begins the practical preparations, including testing the fairness and clarity of the question

 

February 2013

 

The Section 30 Order will be agreed by the Privy Council

 

Spring 2013

 

The Referendum Bill comes before Holyrood

 

October 2013

 

MSPs take part in the crucial Stage 3 vote at the Scottish Parliament

 

November 2013

 

Royal Assent is given to the bill

The Scottish government will publish a White Paper - what it calls its "prospectus for independence". Other parties will also put forward their vision for the future of Scotland

 

Summer 2014

 

The pro-independence and anti-independence campaigns intensify

 

Autumn 2014

 

The Scottish independence referendum takes place

 

 

 

source:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-19942638

[Guest howyousawtheworld]

What do people think about this? Is Scottish independence a good idea from your perspective or is it a bad idea? Anyone else Scottish or living in Scotland eligible to vote in the referendum?

[busybeeburns]

I think Scotland should at least have the option to choose either way, so in the interests of democracy, good idea :)

[Cyan Kat]

I don't want them to leave us, then we'll have to own a passport and go through customs and all that when we go to scotland :(

but I do agree that they should have the right to choose as should any country.

[Guest howyousawtheworld]

I think Scotland should at least have the option to choose either way, so in the interests of democracy, good idea :)

 

I agree it's a great opportunity for the people to exercise their democratic right. I think Cameron has taken a real risk but one that is worth persuing clearly on his part. He's certain Scotland will vote no to independence so is prepared to put all his eggs in one basket rather than concede or meet middle way with Salmond on a second question, "devo max" and the great extension of powers towards Scotland (even though Scotland will receive greater powers through the Calman Commission).

 

I'm fairly certain of which way I will be voting which will be no to Scottish independence. I see arguments for independence as very thin. I think we are, despite devolution and the creation of the Scottish Parliament, still very entrenched within UK matters particularly on an economic level. Salmond has always given the impression that if Scotland voted for independence then it would be all sunshine. He refuses to get taken into economic matters such as the share of the national debt or the matter that Scotland would still be in fiscal union with the remaining nations of the UK, effectively meaning our currency being controlled by a foreign nation (same thing either way with the Euro which is about as popular as AIDS atm).

 

If it did happen I would of course accept it. The impact of it though would be felt throughout the UK and would deconstruct the political map and the whole political structure as we know it. Personally I would be far more interested to see the consequences of Scottish independence in England. England is essentially a Conservative country and that move to the right (as a result of the complete removal of Scottish MPs from Westminster who are largely Labour) could also signal a further step away from Europe. I wonder if one referendum on Great Britain could lead to another.

 

 

I don't want them to leave us, then we'll have to own a passport and go through customs and all that when we go to scotland :(

but I do agree that they should have the right to choose as should any country.

 

As probable members of the EU their policy of free travel would mean we won't have to need passports or border control but as I said above, the certainty of the British nations remaining in the EU after possible Scottish independence is not guaranteed, not in Scotland or England for that matter! It's possible that the Conservative monopoly in England after Scottish independence could lead to an EU referendum. That said Cameron is hinting at an EU referendum after 2015 for the whole of the UK so who knows what will happen! The next few years is definitely the time to be interested in UK politics!

[paradise2012]

I think they should be allowed to choose. But I don't think it's right for them to be asking for independence after having been a part of the UK for 300 years.

[Coeurli]

pheew :sweatdrop:

 

I plan on studying abroad next school year (2013/2014) and I'll most likely go to Scotland.

PLEASE DON'T CHANGE ANYTHING UNTIL I LEAVE (I'D SAY JUNE 2014) YOUR COUNTRY.

 

Please

Pretty please

:wacky:

 

 

Thank you guys :nice:

[Guest howyousawtheworld]

pheew :sweatdrop:

 

I plan on studying abroad next school year (2013/2014) and I'll most likely go to Scotland.

PLEASE DON'T CHANGE ANYTHING UNTIL I LEAVE (I'D SAY JUNE 2014) YOUR COUNTRY.

 

Please

Pretty please

:wacky:

 

 

Thank you guys :nice:

 

Oh you'll be fine! The referendum won't be held till October/November 2014.

[Black Rose]

Scotland can leave once the north sea oil has run out :P

[Cyan Kat]

I on his part. As probable members of the EU their policy of free travel would mean we won't have to need passports or border control but as I said above, the certainty of the British nations remaining in the EU after possible Scottish independence is not guaranteed, not in Scotland or England for that matter! It's possible that the Conservative monopoly in England after Scottish independence could lead to an EU referendum. That said Cameron is hinting at an EU referendum after 2015 for the whole of the UK so who knows what will happen! The next few years is definitely the time to be interested in UK politics!

I'm not sure how I feel about us leaving the EU

I understand that there could be financial benefits to do with trade restrictions and the whole thing with Greece but it just seems a bit risky not being part of the union if something went badly wrong idk.

[Guest howyousawtheworld]

I'm not sure how I feel about us leaving the EU

I understand that there could be financial benefits to do with trade restrictions and the whole thing with Greece but it just seems a bit risky not being part of the union if something went badly wrong idk.

 

 

 

 

I don't think Britain's in any danger of going the way of Greece. The British economy is of course much larger and diverse than most other countries. In fairness to the likes of Portugal, Greece and Spain who are all in deep trouble they are all still very young modern democracies having come out of dictatorship within the past 40 years and so didn't have strong and reliable economic structures and political institutions of which Britain has had for centuries.

 

On the whole I don't like the EU. I wish I could because in theory it sounds like a good idea but in it's current state it is a shambles. It's terribly undemocratic and something of a political shambles as shown by the Euro crisis. In theory the EU seems like a good

idea and given a massive reform of the organisation it could work but put simply it isn't working and they show no intention of reforming it at all. I think a referendum on EU is inevitable. I could be swayed either way but I'm siding towards opting out of the EU.

[Cobalt]

But I don't think it's right for them to be asking for independence after having been a part of the UK for 300 years.

 

I don't get it :blank:

[bart]

England should be allowed to vote if the Scottish are able to go for independence 1st.

[Guest howyousawtheworld]

Westminster refects Alex Salmond claim on Scotland's EU membership

 

Westminster rejects Alex Salmond claim on Scotland's EU membership

 

UK government issues statement fuelling row over an independent Scotland's status in the European Union

 

 

 

The UK government says an independent Scotland would have to apply as a new member state to join the European Union, with uncertain consequences.

 

In a brief statement issued on Thursday, Westminster hinted strongly that its legal advice directly contradicted the claim by Scotland's first minister, Alex Salmond, that, if Scotland voted for independence, it and the rest of the UK would need to reapply to join the EU as newly formed states.

 

As the controversy over Salmond's stance on Europe again dominated first minister's questions at Holyrood, the UK government said its position was that only Scotland would have to apply to join as a new state if voters chose independence in 2014.

 

Separately, in a speech on Europe to the Royal United Services Institute at Chatham House in London, the deputy prime minister Nick Clegg entered the fray, stating that Salmond's statements on Scotland getting automatic membership of the EU "has no basis in fact".

 

He said Scottish nationalists "don't want to face what might happen to Scotland's influence on fishing quotas, or agricultural policy, or the regulation of the banks. They don't want reality to bite. So they've gone into denial, preferring political assertion to legal advice."

 

The dispute has suddenly dominated the debate about the Scottish independence referendum after Salmond's deputy, Nicola Sturgeon, revealed last week that the Scottish National party government had not sought its own legal advice on EU membership, despite statements by Salmond that it had.

 

The UK government statement stressed that, unlike the Scottish government, it had obtained formal advice from its law officers and that Scotland would have to negotiate the terms of its EU membership with the UK and all other 26 member states.

 

It said: "This government has confirmed it does hold legal advice on this issue. Based on the overwhelming weight of international precedent, it is the government's view that the remainder of the UK would continue to exercise the UK's existing international rights and obligations and Scotland would form a new state.

 

"The most likely scenario is that the rest of the UK would be recognised as the continuing state and an independent Scotland would have to apply to join the EU as a new state, involving negotiation with the rest of the UK and other member states, the outcome of which cannot be predicted."

 

Referring to statements by European commission president, José Manuel Barroso, and his deputy, Viviane Reding, that a newly independent country would be seen as a new applicant, it added: "Recent pronouncements from the commission support that view."

 

It rejected Salmond's suggestion that the UK should take up the commission's offer to provide any member state with a clear view on the membership rights of a newly-formed state within the EU.

 

The commission has recently said that after the deal between Salmond and David Cameron to stage the independence referendum, known as the Edinburgh agreement, it could offer its opinion if a member state provided a detailed and specific scenario.

 

Officials said Salmond had not actually officially asked the UK government to do so, and added that it was the Scottish government's problem, not the UK's.

 

"The UK government does not obtain its legal advice from the European commission," the statement from Westminster said. "We are clear that we are not pre-negotiating the terms of separation from the UK ahead of the referendum. It is the Scottish government's policy on independence which is causing this uncertainty and they should be prepared to deal with the many questions it raises."

 

Salmond was goaded during first minister's questions about the controversy that erupted last week and escalated further after Spain's foreign minister, José Manuel García-Margallo, said an independent Scotland would have to "join the queue" for EU membership.

 

Johann Lamont, the Scottish Labour leader, said the first minister was "treating the people of Scotland like fools" and was no longer trusted to tell the truth. "What is it that he's so scared of, that he can't ask the Bank of England about the pound; he can't ask other EU members about Europe?" she asked.

 

Salmond retaliated by quoting from an expert on the EU's borders, Graham Avery, a former strategy director at the commission who was made one of a number of honorary directors general of the European commission after he retired.

 

In a submission to the Commons foreign affairs select committee, Avery supported Salmond's position that it was inconceivable that an independent Scotland would be expected to leave the EU and then reapply. Salmond said his opinion "rather puts the lie to the scaremongering campaign of Labour and their unionist colleagues in the Conservative party".

 

"For practical and political reasons, they could not be asked to leave the EU and apply for readmission," Avery told the committee. "Negotiations on the terms of membership would take place in the period between the referendum and the planned date of independence. The EU would adopt a simplified procedure for the negotiations, not the traditional procedure followed for the accession of non-member countries."

 

But Avery, now at St Antony's College, Oxford University, directly contradicted Salmond's assertions that an independent Scotland would not be expected to join the euro instead of sterling, and that it would not need to sign up to the Schengen agreement rules on security and immigration.

 

Avery said independence would give Scotland a louder and stronger voice in the EU, but new member states "are required to accept [the euro and Schengen] on principle". While Scotland's position was still not clear, Avery warned: "In accession negotiations with non-member countries, the EU has always strongly resisted other changes or opt-outs from the basic treaties."

 

 

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/nov/01/alex-salmond-scotland-eu-membership

 

 

Worth pointing out that EU membership is a key component of the Nationalists independence argument. Salmond told Andrew Neil in a BBC TV interview back in March that he had legal advice advocating an independent Scotland's automatic position in the EU. Last week it was claimed by his deputy Nicola Sturgeon that the SNP held no such legal advice.

 

Put simply Salmond lied....again. How many more lies is the nationalist's argument based upon?