For the past couple weeks me and my military mess manager has been in a minor argument with reference some grammar in the shorten version of the warrant officers and sergeants mess, which is commonly shorten to WOs and Sgts Mess. The argument arises from where to put the apostrophes in the shorten version.

 

I think it should be WOs' and Sgts' Mess because the mess belongs to more than one warrant officer and more than one sergeant, however my manager thinks the apostrophes should go like this WO's and Sgt's Mess

 

Neither of us are backing down and before it gets too silly, I want to put it right once and for all, so is there any grammar experts around able to say which version is correct?

Your way is correct. Your boss phailed at high school if he can't see that.

Yours is correct.

Was this thread really necessary? You knew you were right in the first place

EDIT

 

nvm. I was going to say something else but I changed my mind. some moderator delete this please, or something.

You're right. The way he's doing it, it will be the mess of one warrant officer and one sgt. Point him in the direction of Eats Shoots & Leaves by Lynne Truss, if he still doesn't believe you.

The best way to tell is to look at how you would add the apostrophes without shortening the words. Because both words are plural and you're adding the apostrophe for possessiveness, there are two correct ways to write it (if I'm remembering right...):

 

either the word with s's, as in sergeants's, or the word with s' as in sergeants'.

 

Writing the word with 's would be to write sergeant's as in it's the possession of only one sergeant. You don't want that.

 

s' is what I prefer. Using s's looks redundant and s' is much older and more traditional, from what I understand. When I was studying English my profs always said to pick either one as long as we were consistent for the entire paper.

 

I don't think you would write it WOs' and Sgts' Mess, though, because it's normal to only add the possessive bit to the last name in a list. For example if it was Tom and Jack's mess you wouldn't say Tom's and Jack's mess, but would treat Tom and Jack as a unit and add the apostrophe to the last one in the list. I'm not 100% on that one though... I should look it up.:thinking:

For the past couple weeks

 

You mean 'couple of weeks' I think.

 

me and my military mess manager has been in a minor argument with reference some grammar in the shorten version of the warrant officers and sergeants mess, which is commonly shorten to WOs and Sgts Mess.

 

My goodness where to start here?! 'My military mess manager and I have been in a minor argument with reference to some grammar in the shortened version of....'

 

The fact that you don't put apostrophes in your original, non-abbreviated 'warrant officers and sergeants mess' though seems to make the whole thread redundant anyway, so I shan't waste any more time on this ...:dozey:

^ wow. Somebody is feeling nit-picky.

^ A thread about a minor grammatical point expressed in sentences that have far more obvious errors? Call me nit-picky then!

 

<edit> Oh, you did already :laugh3:

Was this thread really necessary? You knew you were right in the first place

 

Why are you here?

 

Anyway, Mo, you're absolutely right. S's drives me nuts, even though some say it's legit. It reminds me of Homer Simpson talking about the Flandererses,lol.

Why are you here?

 

Anyway, Mo, you're absolutely right. S's drives me nuts, even though some say it's legit. It reminds me of Homer Simpson talking about the Flandererses,lol.

 

It's not legit in British English at least - the extra 's' at the end went out with the codpiece (or at least was meant to!) Here you can either pronounce an extra 's' or leave it off in speech, but in written form it always should be just the apostrophe after the final 's'.

Even when it comes to singular nouns ending with an 's' ?

 

--> Chris' ?

Even when it comes to singular nouns ending with an 's' ?

 

--> Chris' ?

 

Yes :)

 

In Medieval times they did add an extra 's' but in British English that finished many many years ago. The only place I've ever seen the extra 's' is on the signs at St James's Park tube (underground/metro/subway) station in London, which is a throwback to olden days.

 

You can pronounce the extra 's' if you like, but you don't write it (at least here in Britain).

 

Anyway, must go, still haven't finished my packing and the taxi comes in an hour or so :)

Oh okay, thank you. :) You know, you can forget simple things like that when your memory is filled with words like 'lexeme', 'connotation', 'corpora' etc.

 

Have fun in India!

^ A thread about a minor grammatical point expressed in sentences that have far more obvious errors? Call me nit-picky then!

 

Oh, you did already :laugh3:

 

:P

It's not legit in British English at least - the extra 's' at the end went out with the codpiece (or at least was meant to!) Here you can either pronounce an extra 's' or leave it off in speech, but in written form it always should be just the apostrophe after the final 's'.

 

You're right. But apparently some American schools are allowing s's. Drives me nuts!! Er...sorry...It drives me nuts,lol. ANd yeah, St. James's seems quite acceptable.

My goodness where to start here?!

 

What about the thread title?:P

 

 

Most people seem to get the apostrophe 's' thing wrong. I'm sure one of our tutors told us either version [with or without extra 's'] was correct and I'm doing an English degree...

What about the thread title?:P

 

 

Most people seem to get the apostrophe 's' thing wrong. I'm sure one of our tutors told us either version [with or without extra 's'] was correct and I'm doing an English degree...

 

Probably best to check then. I qualified as an English teacher in a college right by St James's, and my tutor was scathing about the way it was written on the signs there - never told him I'd looked into it and found out it was an archaic usage, as his rage was always so amusing :laugh3:

 

I'd get my grammar books out to check for you, but am busy packing, and no doubt you have them yourself. Anyway it's always best to follow what your tutors say, right or wrong, leads to better marks :)

I'll ask my English teacher tomorrow what our school system says about it... he's like some sort of world-class expert on grammar. :P

 

But really, it's pretty silly, we all know that Kite's right, no matter what us backwards US public schools say about it.

GRAMMAR.

^ Indeed!

 

And while we're on the subject of correction, I must correct my own posts here on the subject of British English. My only defence is that language is like a muscle; if you don't use it you will lose it, and I haven't taught for some years now (plus, I am slightly drunk!!)

 

From Michael Swan's excellent 'Practical English Usage':

 

'We sometimes just add an apostrophe to a singular noun ending in -s, especially older and foreign names.

 

Socrates' ideas

 

But 's is more common.

 

Dickens's novels

did you, like, major in English or something? :dizzy:

 

do you know any other important grammar things we should be aware of?

^ I'm just a poor humble ex-English teacher (and not a very good one anymore by the looks of it, hehe).

 

So no more grammar tips from me, but a free piece of advice would be Capitilisation, Capitilisation, Capitilisation (though don't tell Brown or Obama, as that was what got us all in to this mess in the first place :P)

Drunk and talking grammar?! Impressive.

Your journey interests me, Tonsu. Ashram thing?

You're not blogging about it by any chance, are you?