Mistakes in Violet Hill

[greta22]

Now before anyone replies back trying to rip my head off... let me first state that I love the song. And if there's anybody who is obsessed with Coldplay, then it's me. However, I just wanted to state that I was surprised by some of the obvious production mistakes Brian Eno let slip through the cracks....

 

Maybe the reason I picked up on it is because I'm a musician who studies music theory as well as production work, and probably 95% of other people listening to it wouldn't even notice it. I mean this in an absolutely no-music-snobbery kind of way; I just simply mean if you're not looking for it and you don't have a trained ear, then there's a good chance you probably wouldn't notice the mistake. However, Eno's job, and a producer's job in general, is not only to create an overal cohesive sound to an album, but also notice when a singer goes into the wrong key and correct it into the right vocal melody. Even though the untrained ear won't notice it, subconsciously your brain will pick up on it being off and be less attracted to it, just like you would instinctively with scent, let's say.

 

First off, right at 0:44 when Chris sings "roof TOPS" he's actually singing the wrong note by half a step. He's playing a C# minor chord on the piano, starts singing the beginning vocal notes on the tonic note (C#). On the word "Top" he wants to move up in the scale, which would properly be singing the E note (3rd in scale) but improperly sings down by half a step, at the D# note, resulting in a clash.

 

He continues to sing this improperly throughout the entire song, as he gets to the next E note during "winDOWS" in the next verse he sings D# again. The funny thing is, I think he made this mistake because when you sing "winDOWS" it's actually inbetween him hitting the chord on the piano again, so it's easy not to notice it. However, if you try to sing the word in D# right on top of the C# chord, you notice it definitely clashes and sounds bad.

 

Chris also does a pretty sloppy job around 1:16 when he sings "You better LIE LOW" (the capitalized words being the ones I'm talking about). Here he sings a downward melody of G#-F#-E-D# but is off-key, especially during the "low" part. He does even worse on the word "Cross" at 1:50 in the song.

 

This is a minor production mistake, but right at 1:42 when Chris starts the new verse singing the word, "Priests", he starts a second too early. Not that it's a big deal but it sounds as if the track got copy & pasted a few hairs too early in ProTools, haha...

 

Finally, when you get to the ending where it's just the vocals and pianos, Chris does a wonderful job at singing all the notes correctly. Maybe since this part is so less overpowering musically, he could hear his voice better while he was recording it?

 

I understand, at least my interpretation is, he's almost doing a talking-vocal line, it's very Bob Dylan-esque in my opinion, particularly during the verse. So I "get it"...it's supposed to sorta be sloppy. However, as a producer, as much as I love this new song, sometimes I cringe when I listen to it. It's not his best vocals. And to tell you the truth, I would have made the vocals not so reverby, it drowns him out a bit.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to unnecessarily nitpick this song or over-analyze it. Maybe some people would think i'm over-doing it, but anyone else who's in production or music theory work would see what I mean. I'm just saying I'm surprised that despite the fact Coldplay probably shelled out millions of dollars to work with a giganticaly famous and amazing producer like Eno, along with (i'm sure) countless of other mixers and engineers who heard this album, NO ONE else noticed these obvious vocal flaws before they mastered the track? Where's George Martin when you need him...

[zsub]

i understand what your saying and i am not a music student....i would have liked if the song was smoother but i think hes trying to get out some anger with his lyrics thats why its unkempt? i really dont know anything about music so dont take me seriously.

[Space Cadet]

Not to be rude, but so? :dozey:

 

It sounds like it was on purpose to me. And I like it. And I've studied plenty of theory.

[greta22]

yeah i got that sense too, that's he's trying to be abrasive and raw... that's why he tends to staccato the end of his vocal notes. the lyrics to this song are my favorite of coldplay's, by the way. however that still doesn't make explain why he would sing the note in the wrong key, it's just the simple fact that i think he didn't notice it and probably no one else did either. it's nothing new - it's surprising really how often you'll hear mistakes like that in major label work.

[Knotty]

Are The Libertines musically perfect?

 

Are they popular?

 

I have no idea about music theory, but I do know one thing. It doesn't matter. To me, it sounds perfect. If you think everything has to be in-line, in-sync and in-tune for a song to work, then you are very simply wrong.

 

The ONLY thing I agree with you about is the clipping of 'Priests' but the rest of what you just wrote, however much you state the contrary, is music snobbery.

[greta22]

Not to be rude, but so? :dozey:

 

It sounds like it was on purpose to me. And I like it. And I've studied plenty of theory.

 

 

yeah but the point i was trying to make was that he wasn't going out of the key to try to be edgy or unpredictable. yes, a lot of times you go out of the key to create a less predictable song. coldplay does it all the time and that's why i love them - they're my favorite songwriters of today. however, in this verse, the chords don't go out of the key - but at the one part of the melody, his voice does. incorrectly. it would be like a bass player playing the wrong root note by half a step - it's not being out of key, it's OFF key.

[Puzzling]

I think the 'Priests' thing fits perfectly - it spices up the verse a little. I think Coldplay has done the same before (can't come up with examples right now ...).

[greta22]

Are The Libertines musically perfect?

 

Are they popular?

 

I have no idea about music theory, but I do know one thing. It doesn't matter. To me, it sounds perfect. If you think everything has to be in-line, in-sync and in-tune for a song to work, then you are very simply wrong.

 

The ONLY thing I agree with you about is the clipping of 'Priests' but the rest of what you just wrote, however much you state the contrary, is music snobbery.

 

if you don't know anything about music theory then please dont try to argue with me like you do. i wasnt trying to post a flaming thread here.

 

i realize EVERYTHING you're saying about something being raw and original and not completely perfect or in key all the time.

 

HOWEVER....

 

if you don't think that music is a mathematical forumla to a certain extent then you're simply wrong. sure, people with absolutely no musical knowledge can create absolutely amazing songs because they have good ears and they don't have any idea what it means, theory wise. it's like mixing colors together randomly and creating a beautiful painting. however, if you're going to argue with me that mixing together blue and yellow doesn't always give you green, then you're being naive.

 

what im trying to say is that despite people not knowing theory, there are REAL PHYSICAL LAWS of music, just like there is with math. and sometimes, people do it incorrectly. so listen again: the note chris sings, the D# i was talking about, is a CLASHING NOTE. as it is OFF KEY, INCORRECT, NOT INTENTIONAL.

[Knotty]

Please go listen to Mozart, then. I read this website so often but your post is the first in a long time that has encouraged me to sign in and say something.

 

What you're saying DOESN'T MATTER. I'm pretty sure it's yellow and blue that equal green, but I get it anyway. What I'm trying to say is maybe people don't want to see a pure shade of primary-colour blue =). If you think music needs to be perfect to be perfect...you're daft.

[Space Cadet]

yeah but the point i was trying to make was that he wasn't going out of the key to try to be edgy or unpredictable. yes, a lot of times you go out of the key to create a less predictable song. coldplay does it all the time and that's why i love them - they're my favorite songwriters of today. however, in this verse, the chords don't go out of the key - but at the one part of the melody, his voice does. incorrectly. it would be like a bass player playing the wrong root note by half a step - it's not being out of key, it's OFF key.

 

But the way he's belting it out, like he's playing a character, one who doesn't necessarily have any training, it fits that perfectly. I just said it in another thread, it sounds like it's a song sung by a soldier from a past era, and in my experience, they sing like that.

 

Rules in things like music were made to be bent and broken- they give you a starting point, and then you can manipulate them for dramatic effect.

[Knotty]

(And you should go back to art school since your first post implied that green + yellow = blue, until you edited it)

[wayne]

You must be familiar with the idea of dissonance? All music incorporates varying degress of dissonance, and it's this that is often responsible for the tension and release that contribute to an awesome song. Indeed, in my book, it's largely this that leads to expression of emotion in music.

 

As for the word "priests" coming early, I personally love it. But then, I'm a big fan of odd time signatures and that word coming and 8th early gives that particular vocal section a quick feeling of 7/8 and I'd be extremely surprised if it wasn't deliberate. It gives a great feeling of snatching at the next measure.

[- DAN -]

greta22, you have come up with some good points there. but eno may have simply decided to keep these 'flaws' to give the song some edge, as with 'everything's not lost' on parachutes - as far as i am aware that was just one take, you can pick up imperfections in the vocals but still without them it wouldn't be such a good song. it almost gives the song some honesty, you know? i am sure with this upcomming album being the 4th (and one that has the potential to destroy coldplay's career, if produced badly) eno wouldn't let something as trvial as this get in the way. violet hill was no doubt mean't to sound raw and with some grit, unlike the previous album's plastic feel.

[PianoRocker]

Well, I have a very wide knowledge of musictheory.. and very far trained ears.

I have checked the moments you say.

 

Those are NOT mistakes.

A mistake is something that is made wrong.. not how you would do it.

What they've done here is something that the theory does not allow.

BUT you forget one thing. It is not wrong to play the E flat on a D flat.

It is not in the major scale.

But as a music student you know that there are more scales then major, minor, blues etc.

There are scales that have E flat and D flat in it.

So you can remove that one from your list.

 

1:42, maybe they dit that with opset(think of 42.) But no.. not a mistake.

Just what they have chosen for!

 

All those things are theory correct.

You only have to think more.. study more on the scales(you gonna need it.)

[uwwedoogie]

shut up.

 

when i hear chris moyles saying "the song is number one, but im not playing it because chris sings in c# and plays in d so obviously, we can't play that on the radio" when he says that, all this might matter.

 

not saying you aren't entitled to your opinion, just you're being very overly picky.

[PianoRocker]

Oh and By The Way.

 

Listen to Californication from Red Hot Chili Peppers if you wan't to find more of these things. ;)

[greta22]

greta22, you have come up with some good points there. but eno may have simply decided to keep these 'flaws' to give the song some edge, as with 'everything's not lost' on parachutes - as far as i am aware that was just one take, you can pick up imperfections in the vocals but still without them it wouldn't be such a good song. it almost gives the song some honesty, you know? i am sure with this upcomming album being the 4th (and one that has the potential to destroy coldplay's career, if produced badly) eno wouldn't let something as trvial as this get in the way. violet hill was no doubt mean't to sound raw and with some grit, unlike the previous album's plastic feel.

 

yeah i thought that too, i figured this probably was done maybe in a couple of takes and they wanted to capture that freshness to it without having to do a million vocal re-do's....

 

what i simply meant by bringing it up is that i wouldnt be surprised if eno simply just didnt notice it! i have no idea on his background besides the fact he started the "ambient" genre and then became a big producer, so he might have had a lot of music school and i have no idea, so correct me if i'm wrong... but what i'm saying is, rather than people assuming i'm trying to bash the uniqueness of the song, i'm simply saying, hey, if i were coldplay and i was shelling out a lot of money for a producer, couldn't he at least notice when i'm singing the wrong notes? like... isn't that his job? don't get me wrong, maybe they did it intentionally, maybe eno did notice it. but if he wasn't classically trained in music, like a lot of producers aren't these days, i wouldn't be surprised if he just didnt notice it because he was singing only half a step off.

[melanieau]

Coldplay is quite a methodical group of fellas - they are all obsessed with getting songs as perfect as they can, so I highly doubt there are any mistakes in this song. Knowing them, they agonized over these recordings until these songs were perfect.

 

:)

[Dejan]

Please go listen to Mozart, then. I read this website so often but your post is the first in a long time that has encouraged me to sign in and say something.

 

What you're saying DOESN'T MATTER.

 

you are a fuckin big head.

calm down

[nothingtoseehere]

Oh my heck, what annoying comments to make! Every single thing you wrote there isn't relevant!

 

The 'lie low' bit he sang which SOUNDED off key, was, I'm sure, intentionally sang that way to add a bit of variety to the tune, as being repetitive is predictable and can get boring. He sings it on the exact note when he says 'unfolds', too, which makes it symmetrical, so it's not sloppily out of key at all.

 

Same thing with the 'priest' coming in a bit early than expected. It's all to add variety.

 

You can't expect a song to be a perfectly trimmed hedge. I'm doing a degree in literature, and I know exactly what it snobbery in arts is like, and that is snobbery, to be frank. There is no correct way that a song should sang or written, just like there's no strict rules about how a poem should be written. Sometimes you gotta rebel a bit and make your own rules. If the imperfections in Violet Hill were unintentional, then I'm sure Coldplay and Eno or anyone else working on the record would've done something about it, because frankly, they weren't that difficult to spot, even if you're untrained.

[greta22]

Well, I have a very wide knowledge of musictheory.. and very far trained ears.

I have checked the moments you say.

 

Those are NOT mistakes.

A mistake is something that is made wrong.. not how you would do it.

What they've done here is something that the theory does not allow.

BUT you forget one thing. It is not wrong to play the E flat on a D flat.

It is not in the major scale.

But as a music student you know that there are more scales then major, minor, blues etc.

There are scales that have E flat and D flat in it.

So you can remove that one from your list.

 

1:42, maybe they dit that with opset(think of 42.) But no.. not a mistake.

Just what they have chosen for!

 

All those things are theory correct.

You only have to think more.. study more on the scales(you gonna need it.)

 

i want to state that, yes, of course i know how there are scales that have D# in them ... actually to make it simpler to understand i stated that he was going out of key by going to the D# which i shouldn't say, because really, it's not like D# is some anomaly out of that key. that's not incorrect. however, without making my original post a paragraph longer, i described in that sense so more people without musical training could understand what i was trying to say.

 

so basically, to sum it all up, though i of course cant read their minds as to how the wrote the vocal, i'm just simply saying, as a singer myself...it's very easy to sing a bad note like that and not notice it, unless maybe you write out your entire vocal pattern note-by-note, which not a lot of people bother to do (unless maybe you're a classical singer). if for some reason they decided to throw in that D# note in there on top of a C# minor chord, which has a very prominent and strong E in there, it was in my opinion bad judgement, because all that does is create an obvious clash. i highly doubt it was deliberate. you can argue that that's what keeps the song sounding "real" by singing wrong notes but that's like saying you love the people who get kicked off american idol. are people really going to try and deny that? whether anyone knows music theory or you don't, there's still a forumla behind it. just like whether or not you know how to speak french... those people in france are really saying something, it's not just jibberish.

 

also, yes, dissonance is a very real and powerful thing. i love dissonance. the difference between dissonance though, is when you slide inbetween the wrong note to the right one, or you play a note that's out of the key but still not clashing... this isn't really in the same context as what i was trying to bring up.

[rudy_o]

i think it is the way how it should sounds like.

they're coldplay. repeat, they're COLDPLAY.

and if you want to find the mistakes, there are a lot of singers out there waiting for you.

[greta22]

Oh my heck, what annoying comments to make! Every single thing you wrote there isn't relevant!

 

The 'lie low' bit he sang which SOUNDED off key, was, I'm sure, intentionally sang that way to add a bit of variety to the tune, as being repetitive is predictable and can get boring. He sings it on the exact note when he says 'unfolds', too, which makes it symmetrical, so it's not sloppily out of key at all.

 

Same thing with the 'priest' coming in a bit early than expected. It's all to add variety.

 

You can't expect a song to be a perfectly trimmed hedge. I'm doing a degree in literature, and I know exactly what it snobbery in arts is like, and that is snobbery, to be frank. There is no correct way that a song should sang or written, just like there's no strict rules about how a poem should be written. Sometimes you gotta rebel a bit and make your own rules. If the imperfections in Violet Hill were unintentional, then I'm sure Coldplay and Eno or anyone else working on the record would've done something about it, because frankly, they weren't that difficult to spot, even if you're untrained.

 

 

 

i brought up the "priests" line just because i noticed it. i didnt mean that i disliked it. i said it sorta sarcastically anyway (which is why i said they "pasted it a hair too early in pro tools") but i since everyone got their panties in such a bunch that i sacriligiously said something that wasn't bow-down adoration over "violet hill" i couldn't explain myself further ...

 

just as you think it's snobby i analyze the music, i think it's snobby that you automatically think i'm trying to make some sort of mockery out of the song or music in general. or i'm just being an tightass who doesn't like fresh music. like yeah, just because i study music, that i cant appreciate the uniqueness or randomness of music because of the fact it's been drilled in me too much to have order. ORDER ORDER ORDER!!! PRAISE MOZART, INDIE SUCKS!!. GEE, haven't heard that stereotype before!

 

people always think like that because they've learned from all the other pretentious indie mags and blogs that people who really learn music are boring, and the bands who get their demo hyped up on stereogum a few months later not knowing how the hell to carry a tune are geniuses.

 

that's the reason why i've always loved coldplay. they write great songs for the sake of songwriting. they're the least pretentious musicians in the business, in my opinion.

 

the reason i brought up the whole arguement was simply just to make a point as to how its funny that people, even in a BILLION DOLLAR industry, still make mistakes in the music biz. i wasn't saying it to defame coldplay or their god-like greatness, so you can all pull your panties out of your wedgies a little bit more now.

[Space Cadet]

what i simply meant by bringing it up is that i wouldnt be surprised if eno simply just didnt notice it! i have no idea on his background besides the fact he started the "ambient" genre and then became a big producer, so he might have had a lot of music school and i have no idea, so correct me if i'm wrong... but what i'm saying is, rather than people assuming i'm trying to bash the uniqueness of the song, i'm simply saying, hey, if i were coldplay and i was shelling out a lot of money for a producer, couldn't he at least notice when i'm singing the wrong notes? like... isn't that his job? don't get me wrong, maybe they did it intentionally, maybe eno did notice it. but if he wasn't classically trained in music, like a lot of producers aren't these days, i wouldn't be surprised if he just didnt notice it because he was singing only half a step off.

 

Dude, I have a short attention span, and have studied lots of different things over the years as a result of that. Classic jack of all trades type. So I understand what you're getting at, because I've seen it over and over.

 

It's like a thumbtack in your ear, and no matter how hard you try to ignore it or accept it or anything, it's still there poking you screaming out "I'm wrong!".

 

When I studied photography, I couldn't look at amateur snapshots for a longtime. They were so profoundly wrong. When I studied graphic design I would grumble about how terribly laid out certain low budget magazines were, and even how a few of the glossies made the occasional big mistake. As soon as I seriously started learning music theory I started noticing bits that no one who knew anything would do.

 

The thing is, it will pass, if you let it.

 

It involves a great deal of humble pie (at least in my case) when I realized there were concepts in play beyond what I was familiar with, and it mean learning to appreciate willful naivety- how it can actually improve something and how hard some people with training try to get back to that state, because things- important things- get lost when the rules are followed.

 

For me learning about music meant learning about the rules, and then learning about all the other rules I had never heard of and all the genres that break them on purpose - things like dissonance and alternative scales as people have mentioned. It's like there is your basic rules, and then all the other rules get bent to encompass all the other things. And things rooted in blues and folk are not mathematical- they came from a completely different background and culture than classical or 'art' type music. They were based around things like African chromatic scales. So every note can be right. That's why you can swing notes around in rock and still have the correct timing, even though 'classical' training would tell you otherwise.

 

That's why in the past many people have thought of it as the "devil's music" because of the way it seemed to break all the rules western music had built up over the centuries.

 

 

I'm sure Brian Eno noticed. I don't think he thought it was 'wrong'. In fact, I bet you he was the one who encouraged Chris to sing like that.

[wayne]

also, yes, dissonance is a very real and powerful thing. i love dissonance. the difference between dissonance though, is when you slide inbetween the wrong note to the right one, or you play a note that's out of the key but still not clashing... this isn't really in the same context as what i was trying to bring up.

 

Dissonance IS when things clash though. As to whether that clash is right or wrong, well, right and wrong can only be judged in context of some framework, in your case, the theory you have thus far learnt. My context? What sounds good to me, and THAT clash is perfectly fine for me.

 

There are no universal rules in music, only a number of different sets that humanity has so far devised.