Do you think religion does more good or harm for the world?

[an angel]

That is true. But also there are parts in it that speak negatively about women too.

 

There are negative things about men too as well as lots of positive things about women. But my point was that he set the example for how we're to treat other people, that's all that matters.

[Prince Myshkin]

He had the audacity to forgive people of their sins through death.

Possibly the single worst thing to happen to humans in their entire history.

[an angel]

lolwat

[the_gloaming09]

There are negative things about men too as well as lots of positive things about women. But my point was that he set the example for how we're to treat other people, that's all that matters.

 

That is true, but it seems that in general women are particularly persecuted. I think as you mentioned that his overall message was meant to be good, but I find the stories about him in the bible to be more about having a meaning of one of the short stories at the end much like a childrens book.

 

At the same time I don't think it's because of him that we are moral. As humans we naturally know right from wrong mostly because of how we are raised by our parents. I mean for example I had a friend who would always take advantage of sleeping over friends houses and pretty much living there. Personally I think it's wrong to impose like that but if it wasn't for the shitty parenting of his parents I think he'd be better off. I think basically we learn from our parents experience in their lives and they try to teach us.

[the_gloaming09]

He had the audacity to forgive people of their sins through death.

Possibly the single worst thing to happen to humans in their entire history.

 

I think what Greg is trying to get at is that fact that you cannot simply put your mistakes or "sins" on to someone elses shoulders. You have to take responsibility for your actions, and not just essentially place it onto someone else.

 

is that right greg?

[Prince Myshkin]

I think what Greg is trying to get at is that fact that you cannot simply put your mistakes or "sins" on to someone elses shoulders. You have to take responsibility for your actions, and not just essentially place it onto someone else.

 

is that right greg?

 

Yes. As well as the fact that forgiveness should come from the person you have harmed. That does not resolve the matter if it doesn't. There will be times when forgiveness doesn't come. You have to deal with that, not simply invent somebody to burden it with, or worse not even attempt to sort the problem out and simply pray for forgiveness straight off the bat since it is expected of you.

 

This free license of simply being able to repent and gain forgiveness has done damage my mind simply can't comprehend.

 

Goodnight, I'll try to sleep again haha.

[Reilly]

I do feel sorry because it's also like the witch trials, you had people hanged because they didn't believe in god or a religion. Same goes with the huge conflict between the protestants and catholics in Ireland too.

 

Obviously being Irish this is at the forefront of my mind with this topic, and this is the thing, religion has nothing to do with the Troubles, it's territory, it's politics, so it's a 'war' based on people established as one type of religion, but the average person in the middle of it couldn't tell you the difference between protestants and catholics, but ask them the difference between Nationalists and Loyalists and you are in for one long and deep historical conversation that would inevitably spiral infinitely away from the territories of Britain and Ireland to a time to when it actually directly was a religious war. Out of every war ever fought, it's considered that a small amount (Less then 10 or 15%) have been considered 'religious wars', and there's still much dispute over what a war based on religion actually is.

 

Do we consider a religious war directly based on differences between religious aspects? Is that the only one that counts? Because in that case not even many battles in the Crusades were religious wars, they were based on territory and the resources of that territory. Just like the Troubles it had nothing to do with religious differences, it was simply tribal, and there will always be different groups that we'll figure out a way to put ourselves in, and there will always be divides between those groups, and we'll find these differences and ways to fight because of pure human merciless greed.

 

In that case I don't think religion itself has not caused much damage to humanity, it was our need to find reasons to interpret our religious rules to differentiate ourselves, and often suit these to the cultural needs and our surroundings. On the other hand I do think throughout history up to today religion has been an important belief and moral system for many people, although admitedly it's hard to imagine with the sickening grand atrocities that have happened through history regardless of religious being a presence in people's lives, I do think without it there would be an even further point of pure human chaos, where steady rules and boundaries would cease to ever truly exist.

 

It's all too all-encompassing to look at but I can't really just look at it in the modern world and forget about it's impact on the past, so massive social issues right now like homosexuality and abortion to me aren't grand enough to be able to weigh all of this up.

 

I'm basically with Sarah, if you look at some direct quotes from the bible for example which are the basis to make homosexual illegal, they have clearly been interpreted, and as far as literal interpretation towards some other more obvious quotes, the creationists will take every word of the bible literally in that case but also accept that some ideas are simply out-dated, it's all just interpretations to suit people's own interests. Many say that the Qu'ran not only has nothing related to violence, but even states that the enemy is to live to be converted, and they are to be protected as if they are your own. And look what conclusions people have drawn from that?

 

Religion is just a set of moral and social guidelines, it's inevitable people will think of that, so I think of 'religion' as just a word which represents morality and a grand scheme of thought which is too large to be able to truely evaluate how I feel whether it's positive or not, so I'm thinking it's neither, religion didn't cause the harm associated to it, people did.

[NumbersGirl]

This free license of simply being able to repent and gain forgiveness has done damage my mind simply can't comprehend.

THIS

[the_gloaming09]

^you make very good and convincing points Reilly. Of course I wouldn't know it as well as you, but I understood the whole conflict with Britain and Ireland to be because of religious groups, but I guess there was more to it.

 

Perhaps the main cause of of a lot of conflicts in history wasn't mainly religion but over territory. But even so persecution because of religion is still a big problem that has lasted for a while whether from the issues between India and Pakistan, or the Middle East countries. Yes many wars don't have to do with religion but territory, but at the same time you could also be said that the currently conflict against Israel is solely for land, when if they were an Islamic nation, it wouldn't be much of a issue.

Still you had various witch trials that persecuted people for not following a certain religion, or believing what they were practicing was witchcraft. Also with the conquest and colonization of the Americas you had the travelers trying to convert the natives to Catholicism.

 

Why can't you just let people believe what they want to believe, and not try to change their minds?

 

I'm not saying I don't have respect for any religious people. In fact quite the contrary. I think you can believe whatever you want to, 1 god, a million, or none... I don't care. I do care when it's pushed into my face or considered to be facts when there's no real proof.

 

There's also a sense of sexual repression within religion too. I mean it's a natural bodily function, so why should you make people believe what they are doing is wrong, when in fact it's natural? It's like I've never understood how people could be priests, knowing they were to live an entire celibate life. Why should that make a difference and why restrict or control yourself from something you as a human is supposed to do as all other animals?

 

 

For the bible and Qu'ran there are obviously sections that are up for interpretation, but at the same time there are bits that talk of things that are very specifically against rights for a wide range of people, like in the Qu'ran telling husbands they can beat their wives if they're out of line. So it is bad because if as you said (and I agree) that it was supposed to be a set of moral guidelines, then you are basically telling people that it's okay to beat your wife or that women's equality rights and same sex couples are not right as well as it being okay to own slaves. Lastly it shows how human sacrifice in the name of god is okay. If people go to these books for a moral compass how is it doing any good if it preaches ridiculous things like that?

 

 

I do think that at the time religion may have been good to sort of try and guide people in the right direction of morals, but from my perspective in today's age I think it's meaningless for morals. Of course I have a bit of a bias coming from a liberal state where religion is not emphasized as being such an important thing, and where equality is usually tried to be achieved. Perhaps it's just from living where I do that I feel that people are more than capable outside of those books to make their own decisions and know right from wrong. As I mentioned my family isn't religious but I think I have a really good idea of knowing right from wrong and it has nothing to do from those books but from my parents and also my own personal experiences.

 

I guess also part of me feels that with some stories being so ridiculous I don't see how people can follow it blindly. Perhaps take them as fabels or stories, much like how mother goose stories are meant to have a moral at the end. Overall I do feel a lot of it has to do with our natural fear of death, and hopes that we live on.

[Crests]

edit: nvm~

[Megalomania]

I disagree and don't have the time to explain why tonight.

It is holding the human race back and has continually stood in the way of scientific discovery. Many basic facts have been denied for religion for as long as possible, and that includes all the major religions. Then, when the facts become too much they simply say God did it. Before they reach that stage it all boils down to superstition and voodoo.

 

No, that's not what I meant. I completely agree that in some cases religion has certainly slowed down progression of technology, medicine, etc. But, what I meant to say was that without a common religion, it would have taken hundreds if not thousands of years for the various empires and ancient civilizations to appear as unified forces. So, although we may have gotten to where we are now at some point, it would have taken a lot longer without religion.

But, now I fell that religion is getting in the way of progress. I totally agree that some things that people want to do to get research are unethical, but now it's just getting a bit crazy. And I completely agree that religions have caused way too many wars and deaths.

 

So.

[Lore]

The problem is when religion tries to influence things outside their field, such as politics. Also when people think that being religious makes them better than non religious people and try to force them to think and make things in a certain way (not allowing gay marriage, etc).

[the_gloaming09]

No, that's not what I meant. I completely agree that in some cases religion has certainly slowed down progression of technology, medicine, etc. But, what I meant to say was that without a common religion, it would have taken hundreds if not thousands of years for the various empires and ancient civilizations to appear as unified forces. So, although we may have gotten to where we are now at some point, it would have taken a lot longer without religion.

But, now I fell that religion is getting in the way of progress. I totally agree that some things that people want to do to get research are unethical, but now it's just getting a bit crazy. And I completely agree that religions have caused way too many wars and deaths.

 

So.

I agree. I think that from an initial standpoint it was perhaps good to have it create some order and also be used to explain things that were unknown at the time, but now it seems to have gotten in the way.

 

 

The problem is when religion tries to influence things outside their field, such as politics. Also when people think that being religious makes them better than non religious people and try to force them to think and make things in a certain way (not allowing gay marriage, etc).

 

I agree with this. I find it extremely annoying how it's made out to be a point that being religious is some sort of qualification to being in politics. For example it is usually brought up as to how "god or religion would help you deal with situations while in office". Honestly it shouldn't play a part. Believe it or not depending on the degree of their religiousness would sway me to not vote for them (ex. Mike Huckabee)

[Lore]

ugh I forgot this example. There's a catholic university here that it's quite extremist in their beliefs. For example they have a medical school but they don't teach about contraconception methods, because they think it's innapropiate to use that stuff. The problem is that those future doctors won't just work with extremely catholical people so they should let their patients see all the options they have. I think that's such a stupid thing to do, they shouldn't have the power to do that just because they claim to be respecting their beliefs. This is particularly annoying in the case of poor patients because they don't have the money to choose their doctor and probably they get all (or most of the info) the info from the doctors so they won't know that there are other options.

[Crests]

This thread gets so many songs stuck in my head.

[Guest howyousawtheworld]

I don't have a problem with religion. I have a problem with how people interpret religion and religious doctrine which I feel is the cause of most religious extremist factions. Where many say that religion is the cause of most wars I think this is also an ignorant stand point. Many tribal groups/factions use religion as a means of creating support and divisions to serve their own selfish deluded needs.

[Guest howyousawtheworld]

I have a severe problem though with mindless fuckwits who think science can explain everything - same goes with those who think religion explains everything. Most of science v religion debate is incredibly moronic from both sides.

[Megalomania]

I don't have a problem with religion. I have a problem with how people interpret religion and religious doctrine which I feel is the cause of most religious extremist factions. Where many say that religion is the cause of most wars I think this is also an ignorant stand point. Many tribal groups/factions use religion as a means of creating support and divisions to serve their own selfish deluded needs.

 

I can't speak on this thread without somebody nit-picking my post. >.>

 

Okay, what I meant to say was that people thinking their religion is superior and forcing it on others causes wars.

[the_gloaming09]

I don't have a problem with religion. I have a problem with how people interpret religion and religious doctrine which I feel is the cause of most religious extremist factions. Where many say that religion is the cause of most wars I think this is also an ignorant stand point. Many tribal groups/factions use religion as a means of creating support and divisions to serve their own selfish deluded needs.

 

I have more of a problem how people interpret religion. Simply because they use it for their benefit to control people but also use it against what it's initial use was for and that's I guess a moral compass. I think you can believe what you want to believe in but for my personal stand point I don't see how you can back it up. I could understand much more if someone said they believe in God or some sort of higher power, but to me it's the stories attached to it, that are taken to be 100% true that I can't take seriously

 

 

I have a severe problem though with mindless fuckwits who think science can explain everything - same goes with those who think religion explains everything. Most of science v religion debate is incredibly moronic from both sides.

 

Science isn't perfect, and of course there are a lot of holes in many theories. But I think science is able to do a much better job of explaining the world around us.

[Jony]

i think mostly good, but sometimes harmful.

 

it 'cause there's people take a bad way on religion, and they don't understand and so the religion take a bad way to many people that is around of them...

 

but the religion is hard ... christianity is hard

 

 

Sorry for my english, i hope you understand me.

[nouratan]

religion is as manipulated as is politics

its just human nature to control so...

 

but i believe on personal level religion helps and may help ppl get over loads of tough things happening in their lives

[Chloe_Martin]

Religion is one of the main reason why countries hate each other

[nouratan]

^that my dear is politics

[deaths_friend]

i voted mostly good but sometimes harmful. simply because i dont think that if we get rid of all the religions in the world that we would be any closer to world peace. bad corrupt violent people will rage wars and hatred regardless of whether they believe in any god or not. you can get rid of religion and people will still find a reason impose their "beliefs" on others and will often resort to violence to achieve that.

 

why? because humans are naturally greedy and power hungry. we will always want to be more powerful and get ahead of others. and thats essentially the foundations of most wars that have been fought over the last century. its not so much a case of "my god is better than yours" rather its "i think you're a filthy bastard and im better than you so you're gonna die" and "i shall do so in the name of my god"

 

so basically what i mean is that i don't think religion is the cause the worlds problems because if you remove we're still pretty much stuck with the same problems.

[Prince Myshkin]

No, that's not what I meant. I completely agree that in some cases religion has certainly slowed down progression of technology, medicine, etc. But, what I meant to say was that without a common religion, it would have taken hundreds if not thousands of years for the various empires and ancient civilizations to appear as unified forces. So, although we may have gotten to where we are now at some point, it would have taken a lot longer without religion.

But, now I fell that religion is getting in the way of progress. I totally agree that some things that people want to do to get research are unethical, but now it's just getting a bit crazy. And I completely agree that religions have caused way too many wars and deaths.

 

So.

 

I still disagree, but I see your point.

 

The problem is when religion tries to influence things outside their field, such as politics. Also when people think that being religious makes them better than non religious people and try to force them to think and make things in a certain way (not allowing gay marriage, etc).

 

A big problem, but the abuse of their own members and the lies and control they use shouldn't be underestimated - see my earlier post on their abuse.

 

I have a severe problem though with mindless fuckwits who think science can explain everything - same goes with those who think religion explains everything. Most of science v religion debate is incredibly moronic from both sides.

 

But in its nature Science will do better at explaining the world around us. Much of it is theory, but whilst it cannot answer everything it at least tries to use reason to find out. As for religion, what can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof. In science they are open to change of perception, providing there is evidence.

 

Of course nothing can explain everything, otherwise we would pretty much in utopia, if such a state exists. Anyone who argues science does doesn't understand the nature of science.

 

i voted mostly good but sometimes harmful. simply because i dont think that if we get rid of all the religions in the world that we would be any closer to world peace. bad corrupt violent people will rage wars and hatred regardless of whether they believe in any god or not. you can get rid of religion and people will still find a reason impose their "beliefs" on others and will often resort to violence to achieve that.

 

why? because humans are naturally greedy and power hungry. we will always want to be more powerful and get ahead of others. and thats essentially the foundations of most wars that have been fought over the last century. its not so much a case of "my god is better than yours" rather its "i think you're a filthy bastard and im better than you so you're gonna die" and "i shall do so in the name of my god"

 

so basically what i mean is that i don't think religion is the cause the worlds problems because if you remove we're still pretty much stuck with the same problems.

 

I think if you got rid of religion there would be a lot less people who were so servile and paralysed. True they would still be bound by fear from their dictators, but they would not ignore the chance to attempt change and revolution based on the fact that the person in power has a holy connection and is therefore untouchable, and questioning them would lead to them going to hell. This viewpoint is still around today thanks to the cult of personality many leaders have created.

 

And yes, many people are bad so getting rid of religion wouldn't solve all the problems. It would be a start though, and it certainly would be interesting to see people actually expressing themselves for a change.