WAKE UP - MUST READ

[TruePatriot]

I quite honestly cannot believe what I have just read.

 

Why this thread is not in the main forum beggers belief. Please post and spead on Facebook, YouTube, Bebo, etc

 

http://www.coldplaying.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47505&page=3

 

[ame=http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8PIEGK0IbA4]YouTube - U.S. Economy : The Philosopher's Stone[/ame]

 

This needs to go Viral like John says.

 

So, apologies for posting this link.....but man....I had to.

 

Read the thread, watch the movies like I did, then open up your eyes to what is happening around you.

 

Crazy stuff - I hope John's message gets out and is not in vain.

 

It's not a time to be pessimistic, Its time to be REALISTIC.

[Hermes_tri]

Not really right place for the topic, but still wanna reply..

 

First of all, the anectode told about asians hunting to feed greedy american lacks that fact, that , in reality, that american had given asians tools to use, weapons, taught them all necessary skills and organised them. THAT was his job.

 

 

Stop watching it after a while - too many persuation. Dramatic music, etc. Hate that stuff. Just regular left wing ideas... boring :thinking:

[Matter-Eater Lad]

Those aren't left wing ideas..... and this is a good video to watch to understand what is going on now. (I already posted it).

[Corey07]

I agree with a few things, but one of the scare tactics about the National Debt is inaccurate. Sure, the Govt. has a big debt, but to say it amounts to 140,000 to each American is false. Its not like we will have to pay that debt back. The Govt. is like a corporation and not a person, National Debt is not bad. And for reporters to imply foreign nations are buying bonds, and Communist China could control policies in America is also false. 56% of bonds are held by a variety of foreign countries it doesn't make since for them to all get together and negotiate controlling the U.S. This is a load of bullcrap.

[Black Rose]

BTW, you talk of the main forum, which area would that be?

[Matter-Eater Lad]

I agree with a few things, but one of the scare tactics about the National Debt is inaccurate. Sure, the Govt. has a big debt, but to say it amounts to 140,000 to each American is false. Its not like we will have to pay that debt back. The Govt. is like a corporation and not a person, National Debt is not bad. And for reporters to imply foreign nations are buying bonds, and Communist China could control policies in America is also false. 56% of bonds are held by a variety of foreign countries it doesn't make since for them to all get together and negotiate controlling the U.S. This is a load of bullcrap.

 

our debt is around 53 trillion. No we won't have pay it back physically, we'll pay for it by a dead currency and hyper inflation...So national debt is a huge issue.

 

Holding that much debt a nation can dump our currency and over night destroy our currency. China could destroy our nation's economy in a short amount of time if it dumped our dollars they're holding.

[Saffire]

Corey, China recently surpassed Japan as the largest holder of US national debt.

 

And MrCool011 is right, Americans will pay the debt back through inflation, not direct increase in taxes. Either way, it will cause a dramatic decrease in our standard of living here compared with other countries. Our economic growth will be stagnant for the next decade unless the dollar is pegged to a commodity like gold.

 

The problem is that people assume national debt isn't an issue that affects them directly. They are more prone to see something more visceral (like terrorism) as a threat. But the cost of having a government is massive beyond comprehension. We'd probably be 30 to 40 years ahead of where we are now without taxation or inflation.

[chuck kottke]

Well, it's quite a complex mechanism, this global economy that we're all woven into. China may be the largest single holder of bonds, or other debt securities, but what is the percentage that they own?? And the inflation goes up, won't that devalue their bonds? Which could trigger them to sell and reinvest elsewhere.. but then the U.S. market is where they sell most of their goods, so that would be unwise. If I could figure it all out, I'd either be wealthy or head of the IMF!

Of course, there is the historic example of Germany's Weimar Republic and the triple whammy of bad investments, war reparations, and printing fiat money. But, we're not going to be "printing" as large a percentage (actually just move some 00's in some computers). But that, the war debt, and the huge market drop doesn't make it any easier for us.

But with the economy faltering, does this allow more Americans to re-finance their mortgages, and how does this affect the end result?? All I know is, once the ball starts to roll back on us, it's a cycle of lower demand, then layoffs, then lower demand, and repeat until the low point is reached. That's under normal circumstances..

Gold is a funny thing - since 85% or more is used for jewelery, it's less used as a reserve, and sold more as a metal used for high-end products, so I found it interesting that even though demand rose for gold as a hedge against market instabilities, it actually fell while the markets tumbled because (I'm gathering) jewelery sales were predicted to be soft. Obtaining gold is probably one of the most energy-intensive and land-intensive (plus environmentally risky) thing we can mine for, so I'm not a big proponent of anything that would increase demand for gold.

Yes, sheer numbers can be simply numbing - I wish our national debt would be shown as a percentage of real GDP or something, so one could get a better handle on what the number means, and at what point inflation starts to take off. China doesn't want to loose in the process, so one odd side-effect might be China propping up the US to prevent further slides which would loose them more money in the end. That's assuming they're any better at figuring things out with the global economy than we are! Well, anyhow, hope we all make it through the harder times in good shape!

[Saffire]

Hey Chuck, good post.

 

Gold is a funny thing - since 85% or more is used for jewelery, it's less used as a reserve, and sold more as a metal used for high-end products, so I found it interesting that even though demand rose for gold as a hedge against market instabilities, it actually fell while the markets tumbled because (I'm gathering) jewelery sales were predicted to be soft.

 

The reason gold initially fell was because of a few factors:

 

1. The US federal reserve was (and continues) to sell their gold reserves in large quantities, in an effort to artificially increase supply and hold the price of gold down. Their motive to do this is pretty obvious.

 

2. Investors easily confuse falling asset prices as for deflation. So when stocks fell in price, everyone wanted to be in dollars as it was perceived to be the most stable store of value. That quickly changed when the fed reduced interest rates to near zero! In truth, deflation is a decrease in the supply of money (which never actually happens unless The Joker burns a huge pile of cash like in that recent Batman movie).

 

3. Commodities prices tend to fall during the onset of a recession, in anticipation of lower demand. Gold is included in the iTunes playlist known as "Commodities", so when oil and copper fell, so did gold - even though it shouldn't have. It's just a matter of time before people realize the difference (gold has few useful applications in industrial manufacturing).

 

The thing about China holding our bonds is this: Chinese politics is extremely touch-and-go. They are constantly trying to keep their GDP growing at as fast a pace as it has been for the past decade, and to do that they rely on the health of the American consumer. So devaluing the dollar would be disastrous for the Chinese government - they would be perceived as incapable of continuing the good economic conditions there.

 

Therefore, the Chinese have played along with America for longer than they should have. To some degree they knew trading our debt was like buying into a Ponzi scheme, but they wanted to kick the can down the road a little longer - not unlike our own politicians.

 

We've finally reached the end of the road. Americans will mistake the economic downturn for something wrong with the free market, and demand more government regulation. Wash, rinse, repeat.

[Corey07]

Personally I am not that worried about the U.S. National Debt, although I strongly dislike large government and would want the debt to be reduced, there are bigger problems to fix. Such as the current economy, and especially social security and medicare.

 

In response to Saffire- So Japan holds the largest percentage of our national debt? The percentage they hold still isn't that significant, and Japan isn't going to dump the currency their holding.

Neither will China, because both countries are hurting economically, and investing in U.S. treasury bonds are one of the safest investments a person can currently make, since banks are now having trouble. The belief that countries can affect U.S. policy since they hold a large percentage of bonds is false tactic of the media to induce panic. Its not logical.

 

Also another false belief of the media is we shouldn't allow our children to have to pay for our national debt. However, current Americans are paying for past national debts of our nation. Im more perturbed about Social security than national debt, where the money I am paying now goes immediately to pay recipients, and how I will most likely receive less than what I paid in.

 

And I don't know why your talking about gold, Fiat money is plain and simple the best method of a currency today.

 

Since you guys are really worried about our national debt, I hope none of you voted for Obama, because our National Debt will only increase with him in office.

[Matter-Eater Lad]

Personally I am not that worried about the U.S. National Debt, although I strongly dislike large government and would want the debt to be reduced, there are bigger problems to fix. Such as the current economy, and especially social security and medicare.

 

In response to Saffire- So Japan holds the largest percentage of our national debt? The percentage they hold still isn't that significant, and Japan isn't going to dump the currency their holding.

Neither will China, because both countries are hurting economically, and investing in U.S. treasury bonds are one of the safest investments a person can currently make, since banks are now having trouble. The belief that countries can affect U.S. policy since they hold a large percentage of bonds is false tactic of the media to induce panic. Its not logical.

 

Also another false belief of the media is we shouldn't allow our children to have to pay for our national debt. However, current Americans are paying for past national debts of our nation. Im more perturbed about Social security than national debt, where the money I am paying now goes immediately to pay recipients, and how I will most likely receive less than what I paid in.

 

And I don't know why your talking about gold, Fiat money is plain and simple the best method of a currency today.

 

Since you guys are really worried about our national debt, I hope none of you voted for Obama, because our National Debt will only increase with him in office.

 

National debt is closely tied to our economy and economic problems. Part of the reason were doing so bad is because of national debt.

 

Fiat currency is failing....:laugh3: How is it the best? Gold currency is the only one that has worked, fiat has never worked for more then a few decades.

 

We had many times more wealth and a better economy under the gold standard. Fiat currency ALWAYS ends in disaster...(were seeing this now, and in the next few years we'll see the complete break down of the dollar because of fiat currency.) National debt and fiat currency are two main issue's leading to our modern day economic crisis.

[Black Rose]

But at least the dollar isn't in free-fall against other currencies as badly as the pound is doing :(

[Pseudonym]

:lol:I don't feel like debating but there are a lot of nerds here:P

[Matter-Eater Lad]

Nerds, well when obama fucks things up more, i'll have my money safe and you'll at least have your Obama t-shirt.... a lot of good "hope" will do when you're broke...lol