Green Cars

Is the new Fiesta green? Yes, but there are varying shades of green. 123456789. So, it's all a matter of degree, and which component one values more than another. Some say the Trabant, for instance, wasn't green because of the emissions. But it did get 34-40 miles per gallon (US), and the body was made from recycled materials, including cotton waste, wool, and cellulose fibers. How we measure each aspect makes a big difference. Personally, I think the true green machines are: bicycles.:)

Check out a local favorite, if you're interested...Trek Bikes | Bikes | Bike Path | Lime Lite

a_face_of_light · February 14, 2009

Black isn't too hot in summer-thats's what A/C is for:P

Tnspieler1012 · February 14, 2009

yes, but your hand will melt before you can reach it :P. (NTM it takes forever to cool down)

Silver's the safest way to go. Doesn't show dirt like white, looks cool and keeps the car cool.

chuck kottke · February 14, 2009

Bright finish Silicon:P The future is cool blue.:cool:pvprius.jpg (JPEG Image, 370x278 pixels)

Toyota to sell solar panel equipped Prius « from the inside, looking in

a_face_of_light · February 14, 2009

yes, but your hand will melt before you can reach it :P. (NTM it takes forever to cool down)

Silver's the safest way to go. Doesn't show dirt like white, looks cool and keeps the car cool.

I don't know why but I always seem to like cars in either Black or White and nothing else for some reason.

chuck kottke · February 14, 2009

:rolleyes:Black or White, It can all be green if done right.;) But the point is green cars, and car overheating in the the sun is an issue, one which requires extra energy to cool off.. My contention was that all the parking lots should have solar shade canopies that have solar panels on them (they even have panels now that allow some light to come through, so this makes much sense in a parking lot setting.). The solar power then fed into the car's battery, or into the local grid.

a_face_of_light · February 14, 2009

pvprius.jpg (JPEG Image, 370x278 pixels)[/url]
Toyota to sell solar panel equipped Prius « from the inside, looking in

I don't really see the Prius as a breakthrough vechicle as it's still dependant on fossil fuels, I saw on Top Gear recently that Honda have a car that has an electric motor that is powered by Hydrogen and can be filled up at Hydrogen filling stations, the guy drove it and it was a normal car which you fill up in the same way as a petrol or diesel powered car but with a renewable energy source, this seems much more relevant to me than the fashion statement Prius which was proved to be rather unfriendly to the enviroment when you take its manufacturing process into the picture I believe? and is still dependant on fossil fuels,wow all this coming from a girl who loves SUVs, I had better check I don't have a fever:P.

chuck kottke · February 14, 2009

Fossils, ah those old trilobites strike back!:P It's not cutting edge, this is true, but it is a production auto which gets very good mileage when coupled to solar panels & allowed to charge (some get 100mpg or better average with the added panel). Many are being retrofitted with more batteries, and achieving total electric except for long trips. It's a long ways from perfect, but much better than the average!

Honda Hydrogen - sounds interesting! But the hydrogen is an energy carrier, like the battery's plates, LPG, gasoline, etc. It can be made from renewable energy (Iceland does it, for example), but it's tricky to work with. Since it must be stored either under high pressure, or in some type of adsorber material (NiMH, etc.), the issue there becomes how much of the exotic material is needed, and where does it come from. Nickel is relatively rare on the earth's surface, and the mining and refining often leaves a mess, plus the sheer volume of the demand is more than we can supply for everyone to go that route. Still, storage in synthetic zeolites looks promosing for hydrogen; zeolites are a class of aluminosilicate minerals, some made synthetically for adsorbing things like hydrogen. So, I think hydrogen is one way to the future as well.

True, the Prius is, like most automobiles, energy intensive to manufacture, and the batteries might still be either cadmium, lead-acid, or nickel in composition. But that could be changed to Lithium in the near future, an abundant clean element.

SUV's are something we need to change. I recognize the desire for larger families to own one, and perhaps body shape changes, engine efficiencies, and the like can improve the SUV to the point where they're 5X as efficient as current levels. We all like big, roomy things, but when one thinks of the volume of materials and the energy consumed, you have to ask yourself if this is really the right thing to do?? Got a family of 6, and I'd say sure. But a lot of it is just luxury boxes on wheels. May I ask why you love SUV's?

a_face_of_light · February 14, 2009

I personally dislike the Prius and am not too keen on the current crop of Hybrids,I don't know exactly where I stand on Climate Change, I certainly don't believe humans are as responsible as some make out but I do accept we have had some effect on nature, I also think recycling is just common sense and that cutting down Rainforests is a bad thing-if not for the enviroment then for the animals who live in them, I also know oil is going to run out one day and if we don't find an alternitive then the world is going to be a very bad place to live.I do still believe in freedom of choice and if someone wants to buy a big car that does 10 miles per gallon then that's their choice, I don't like hybrid cars because they don't offer a true alternative and I think it's important that companies find a viable one, which personally I feel hydrogen would be a good contender.

I like SUVs(not American ones) because their comfortable, big,look good and can go practically anywhere and deal with terrain that most cars couldn't, what if another car was stuck and you needed to pull it out, or you needed to drive up a steep hill or through mud etc, plus with all the speed humps and bad drivers they make alot more sense too.

chuck kottke · February 14, 2009

You dislike the Prius because of the environmental harm done in manufacturing, or is it the vehicles looks, or something else? I'm not a real big fan of the Prius, but it does offer a place for a flexible solar panel (the Aptera does too..).

Climate change - well, think of it this way - the coal and oil in the Earth's crust stored a huge amount of carbon, which we have rather rapidly burned and thus put into the living portion of the Earth - into the air, water, and life. This is probably having some effect, and a lot of evidence is pointing to our activities as significant in changing or modifying the normal climactic changes (corroborating evidence, including acidifying oceans, gasses trapped in ice, atmospheric concentrations of CO2 and CH4, temperature extremes and averages going up, measurable re-radiation of infra-red increasing (more greenhouse effect)). Probably the single thing that spells it out for me is the sheer volume of coal and oil we've burned, taking that stored carbon and launching it into the oceans and air as CO2.

Yes, I'm with you on recycling! I wish all the products we use were made of safer materials, and more returnables (like washable glass bottles) put back into the system..

Yes, I agree on the rain forests too - it's such a shame to be loosing so many beautiful things, and the rain forests are the Earth's Emeralds. It's important to value more than beans and lumber..

Well, the oil is running out, and yes, we need something else. Actually, it's not that hard for us to change, but it takes incentives, that's for sure!! But we'll actually improve our quality of life in the process, so it's actually a win-win situation..

I think that's fine for someone to choose, but if the choice doesn't include an ofsetting method to make up for the damage to the environment (which for an SUV is a lot), I would be against it. One thing I see is egotism causing great harm, when everyone races to show off the biggest things they can get - and then everyone tries to do the same - it's a stampede with blinders on. We need a better value system, all other things aside.

Hydrogen may be a good choice - I'm just concerned about storage, and other things like metal embrittlement and fires. Adsorbers make hydrogen safe, as long as they're earth-friendly. & Nothing is perfectly safe, but just to a matter of degrees. Hydrogen stored in zeolites may be the way to go. It's a common element, and so are the silicon and aluminum used in the zeolites; so this is viable! I'm interested in it too! But Lithium batteries are good too, and so carbon nanotubes may be as well; even compressed air might work well for part of the power supply. I think biofuels, if used very efficiently and obtained ethically, has a place in the future as well - so in that sense, hybrids may make some sense if coupled to biofuels and either hydrogen or newer battery technologies.

In my mind, I can see using an SUV for hauling purposes; true, often this is necessary. One problem with them though is their drag coefficients are so very high - they'll need better streamlining in the future to get the effiency up, for that's where the low hanging fruit is - it's so much easier to save energy than to make hydrogen, batteries, solar panels, turbines, etc. There is lots of elbow room, but I think what most people like is the higher-up view they offer, and the sense of size which offers some comfort to our psyches. I understand what you're saying, and I've driven everything from tandem axle trucks to sub sub compact cars, so I can see this.. Hmm... just takes two or three times the energy to make as a smaller car, and gets poor mileage. But, with streamlining and lighter materials, they could be vastly improved. Certainly I do think it fair to charge extra for their negative effect on the commons - our shared environment, if they remain so energy intense.

Well, generally trucks tow vehicles that get stuck, and SUV's are basically trucks with bodies. But the reality for most drivers is going to the mall, or going to work, or school, or driving to see something somewhere. Most of them never see muddy roads, or off-road use, and when I've seen cars in the ditch, it's usually after a bad storm, and lots of the ones stuck are SUV's! Probably the low clearances on some of them, and the sheer slippryness of snow or ice does anything in at that point.. and if the drivers had chains, they could get un-stuck, but not many carry chains. I'm babbling, but for the most part, SUV's only get used in the mud, hills, and rough terrain on TV; 95% of them go from well-paved flat highways to well-paved driveways.

If you're thinking they're better in an accident (bad drivers), well, you're right. But that safety comes at the expense of the other drivers (the heavier vehicle feels less impact in a collsion). And it's not that much safer, when one considers roll-overs due to high center of gravity, lack of sense of speed in one, and the general problem for accidents is inattenative driving (cell phones and distractions), or drunken drivers (I can only attest for the US, where 2:30 AM is a dangerous time to be on the road!).

But if you're farming in the Welsh mountains, I can see one being important there! (or a pickup as well..). Anyhow, just trying to find answers to a dillema we all face. How do we become more green, to make our world a liveable place for ourselves, and for the next generations to come?

chuck kottke · February 14, 2009

Trehugger offers a slideshow of 23 electrics:23 Electric Cars Driving the Revolution : TreeHugger

Green SUV Designs, then and now:

Dymaxion car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fuel Economy Concerns Influence New SUV Design | GreenCar.com

DaimlerChrysler Is Thinking Out of the Boxfish

One thing to note: If we are willing to change our attitude about automotive body shapes, we can enter a world of incredible improvements in automotive efficiency. When one thinks of it, view the automobile like an airplane: it's moving along swiftly through the air, and both weight and aerodynamics have a significant effect on it's fuel efficiency (and speed!). So if we are willing to change attitudes towards the shape of the body, we could easily double or even triple fuel efficiency, regardless if the energy source is lithium batteries, hydrogen, biofuels, or something else. No compromise is necessary with roominess or ride - it's a matter of shape and material choices which need to change.

One final note on the spark of creativity:WNET: Bucky Fuller - Guinea Pig B

Black Rose · February 14, 2009

The Prius is killing the planet, fact :P

One of the materials used in making the batteries is causing acid rain where it is mined.

Hydrogen cars are good, but it's getting the hydrogen which is the problem.

And with electric cars the problem is with battery life, if the manufactures did a system where you can go to a garage and swap a spent battery pack out to be replaced with a charged pack, it would be good

a_face_of_light · February 16, 2009

You dislike the Prius because of the environmental harm done in manufacturing, or is it the vehicles looks, or something else? I'm not a real big fan of the Prius, but it does offer a place for a flexible solar panel (the Aptera does too..).
Climate change - well, think of it this way - the coal and oil in the Earth's crust stored a huge amount of carbon, which we have rather rapidly burned and thus put into the living portion of the Earth - into the air, water, and life. This is probably having some effect, and a lot of evidence is pointing to our activities as significant in changing or modifying the normal climactic changes (corroborating evidence, including acidifying oceans, gasses trapped in ice, atmospheric concentrations of CO2 and CH4, temperature extremes and averages going up, measurable re-radiation of infra-red increasing (more greenhouse effect)). Probably the single thing that spells it out for me is the sheer volume of coal and oil we've burned, taking that stored carbon and launching it into the oceans and air as CO2.
Yes, I'm with you on recycling! I wish all the products we use were made of safer materials, and more returnables (like washable glass bottles) put back into the system..
Yes, I agree on the rain forests too - it's such a shame to be loosing so many beautiful things, and the rain forests are the Earth's Emeralds. It's important to value more than beans and lumber..
Well, the oil is running out, and yes, we need something else. Actually, it's not that hard for us to change, but it takes incentives, that's for sure!! But we'll actually improve our quality of life in the process, so it's actually a win-win situation..
I think that's fine for someone to choose, but if the choice doesn't include an ofsetting method to make up for the damage to the environment (which for an SUV is a lot), I would be against it. One thing I see is egotism causing great harm, when everyone races to show off the biggest things they can get - and then everyone tries to do the same - it's a stampede with blinders on. We need a better value system, all other things aside.
Hydrogen may be a good choice - I'm just concerned about storage, and other things like metal embrittlement and fires. Adsorbers make hydrogen safe, as long as they're earth-friendly. & Nothing is perfectly safe, but just to a matter of degrees. Hydrogen stored in zeolites may be the way to go. It's a common element, and so are the silicon and aluminum used in the zeolites; so this is viable! I'm interested in it too! But Lithium batteries are good too, and so carbon nanotubes may be as well; even compressed air might work well for part of the power supply. I think biofuels, if used very efficiently and obtained ethically, has a place in the future as well - so in that sense, hybrids may make some sense if coupled to biofuels and either hydrogen or newer battery technologies.
In my mind, I can see using an SUV for hauling purposes; true, often this is necessary. One problem with them though is their drag coefficients are so very high - they'll need better streamlining in the future to get the effiency up, for that's where the low hanging fruit is - it's so much easier to save energy than to make hydrogen, batteries, solar panels, turbines, etc. There is lots of elbow room, but I think what most people like is the higher-up view they offer, and the sense of size which offers some comfort to our psyches. I understand what you're saying, and I've driven everything from tandem axle trucks to sub sub compact cars, so I can see this.. Hmm... just takes two or three times the energy to make as a smaller car, and gets poor mileage. But, with streamlining and lighter materials, they could be vastly improved. Certainly I do think it fair to charge extra for their negative effect on the commons - our shared environment, if they remain so energy intense.
Well, generally trucks tow vehicles that get stuck, and SUV's are basically trucks with bodies. But the reality for most drivers is going to the mall, or going to work, or school, or driving to see something somewhere. Most of them never see muddy roads, or off-road use, and when I've seen cars in the ditch, it's usually after a bad storm, and lots of the ones stuck are SUV's! Probably the low clearances on some of them, and the sheer slippryness of snow or ice does anything in at that point.. and if the drivers had chains, they could get un-stuck, but not many carry chains. I'm babbling, but for the most part, SUV's only get used in the mud, hills, and rough terrain on TV; 95% of them go from well-paved flat highways to well-paved driveways.
If you're thinking they're better in an accident (bad drivers), well, you're right. But that safety comes at the expense of the other drivers (the heavier vehicle feels less impact in a collsion). And it's not that much safer, when one considers roll-overs due to high center of gravity, lack of sense of speed in one, and the general problem for accidents is inattenative driving (cell phones and distractions), or drunken drivers (I can only attest for the US, where 2:30 AM is a dangerous time to be on the road!).
But if you're farming in the Welsh mountains, I can see one being important there! (or a pickup as well..). Anyhow, just trying to find answers to a dillema we all face. How do we become more green, to make our world a liveable place for ourselves, and for the next generations to come?

I don't like the looks of the Prius, I don't like it's silly and false media image of being a wonderful planet saving car.I'm all for cleaner,safer cars but if this comes at the price of what the car is about

then I would rather not, I don't specifically like SUVS, I'm just fond of one in particular, I find normal everyday cars rather boring for the most part and like ones that are a bit individual, for a small car I would probably go for something like a Diesel Peugeot 207 or VW Polo they both have economy that is superior to a Prius,look better and are less damaging to make-I know you guys don't really like diesel though.

Recycling just makes sense anyway, what's the point in using more energy and resources than we need to.

chuck kottke · February 16, 2009

Probably the problem with the Prius is the battery metals - sulfide ore sources can be very polluting.. The car is not a bad concept from my perspective, and the newer Lithium batteries offer a clean alternative to other battery types. With a solar panel, they do get over 100 mpg. So many of the industrial chemicals and processes used today are risk prone and made of petroleum stock, that's something I think we need to change as well.

Stylistically, yes, I would have to agree, many of today's cars look alike. But streamline design does limit some of the possible body shapes.. Interesting, a Diesel Peugeot 207; I'll have to check it out.;) VW Polo I've seen images of, and took a look at.

I like Diesels (biodiesel), but the exhaust gasses are nauseating. The Mercedes Boxfish auto uses higher compression, a particulate filter, and a solution that neutralizes the nitrogen oxides in the exhaust stream, which makes Diesels more attractive to me:). But high efficiency is the way of the future; glad you're interested, Katie!

True, that's one of the compelling reasons to recycle. I just feel the materials used need to be safer from stem to stern in the process, and autos built with greater durability would reduce overall demand on the environment for resources in general. Trabants had an eco-body of sorts, and that always fascinated me, for a car starting out on the East side of the Iron Curtain.

If I were to buy a new auto, I'd probably purchase an Aptera; it's along the lines of where I'm coming from, and I like the styling! (and it's a California car, naturally..)

a_face_of_light · February 16, 2009

Probably the problem with the Prius is the battery metals - sulfide ore sources can be very polluting.. The car is not a bad concept from my perspective, and the newer Lithium batteries offer a clean alternative to other battery types. With a solar panel, they do get over 100 mpg. So many of the industrial chemicals and processes used today are risk prone and made of petroleum stock, that's something I think we need to change as well.
Stylistically, yes, I would have to agree, many of today's cars look alike. But streamline design does limit some of the possible body shapes.. Interesting, a Diesel Peugeot 207; I'll have to check it out.;) VW Polo I've seen images of, and took a look at.
I like Diesels (biodiesel), but the exhaust gasses are nauseating. The Mercedes Boxfish auto uses higher compression, a particulate filter, and a solution that neutralizes the nitrogen oxides in the exhaust stream, which makes Diesels more attractive to me:). But high efficiency is the way of the future; glad you're interested, Katie!
True, that's one of the compelling reasons to recycle. I just feel the materials used need to be safer from stem to stern in the process, and autos built with greater durability would reduce overall demand on the environment for resources in general. Trabants had an eco-body of sorts, and that always fascinated me, for a car starting out on the East side of the Iron Curtain.
If I were to buy a new auto, I'd probably purchase an Aptera; it's along the lines of where I'm coming from, and I like the styling! (and it's a California car, naturally..)

http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/GREENNEWS/Liberty-Electric-Range-Rover.htm

I would buy that electric car in a second, as it's an electric version of my favourite car of all time,I'm not anti finding an alternative to fossil fuel powered cars I ust think they need to be a credible alternative which offer decent range and performance.

chuck kottke · February 16, 2009

An electric range rover - got a range for it? I have to agree on the driving range and performance issues. That's why I favor true hybrids, which unlike their current counterparts, use battery (clean battery technology batteries) power for a range of 100 miles or more, and then offer a motor-generator which can be automatically switched on for extending the range - when you want to go on a longer trip.

One thing to consider, if you're looking at automobiles from the Green perspective, is that total vehicle weight is a significant source of carbon emission, simply because each pound of materials requires a large amount of energy to manufacture in each step of the process.

We may have to make a few trade-offs if we want a green automotive revolution. Like it or not, body shape is the #1 efficiency gain to be made, simply because autos behave like airplanes at highway speeds. Drag coefficients are big big factors in efficiency and mileage.

Performance can be enhanced as well with better body shapes, so it's actually good in that department.

Electric vehicles for the most part have excellent acceleration and a lower center of gravity (due to low placement of batteries), so they make very good sense as far as sporting goes (as true for the California Tesla motors car, the Aptera, as well as the Range Rover..).

But we must dream beyond to reach the higher plane of what is possible.. Just looking at Bucky Fuller's Dymaxion car, this is what's possible if we put our minds to work on the problem.Dymaxion car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

30 miles per gallon in 1932! Seats 11 comfortably! This vehicle was an SUV!! It used a standard Ford V8 engine, which by today's standards was less than half as efficient as a modern V8 of comparable power. In other words, if it were equipped with a modern engine and drive-train, one could expect it to achieve 70 miles per gallon or better! The top speed was never reached, but Fuller estimated it to be around 120 miles per hour.

We have a long way to go. That same design, equipped with lithium batteries and a backup engine for long distances, could outperform some of the roadster electrics being offered today. This is where we need to be headed. Buckminster Fuller's idea that we can do more with less, and enrich everyone's lives was a maxim to live up to; an inspiration to the human race, and an insight into what's really possible if we put our minds to it.;)

PS - engines might be old technology, but they are sound engineering and will be with us for a long time to come. Efficiency has to be view from a larger perspective than what Rang Rover claims - from source to final power at the wheels, multiplying the efficiency of electric production at each step of the way, we find: (Green Power Generation 30% X Transmission Efficiency 90% X Electric Automotive Efficiency 90%) = 24%. Internal Combustion engines have their losses as well: (Pumping and Refining Energy Efficiency 80% X Delivery Efficiency 90% X Auto Engine Efficiency 25%) = 18%. That's just for descriptive purposes (there are more losses, and I'm giving rough guesstimates on the %s.).

If compression ratio is increased, and full expansion for the hot gasses allowed, then the efficiency of an engine might double, to 50%. Using biofuels obtained from well managed sources could offer one solution to the fuel dilemma.

The problem with electrics is they need to be charged up, and that takes time. Or the batteries need to be swapped at filling station for a quick get-up-and-go refueling. This is possible, so that's one option. Or, with true hybrids, liquid fuels are rarely needed (and engines can burn hydrogen quite well too). When they are needed, regular filling stations can offer them (biodiesel, bio-oil, pure veggie oil, biomass fuels, etc.). Significantly lowering demand for liquid or gaseous fuels makes bio-fuel practical, as a level of energy production that is then sustainable.

a_face_of_light · February 17, 2009

I personally don't feel bio fuel is a great idea due to the vast amounts of land needed to grow it which could be used for food etc.

I'm all for cleaner cars but for example you're never going to be able to power an SUV with the the same engine as you would a smaller car and you're never going to be able to make a sports car do what it does with the same power either and I can't see the people who buy them wanting to give up either any time soon, with a more sporty car I think they could work to increase efficiency by decreasing weight instead of increasing power, with SUVs I don't know what the best answer is.

ImLovingGuyBerryman · February 17, 2009

Has anybody here watched the documentary "Who Killed the Electric Car?"

Who_Killed_The_Electric_Car_Vostfr.mp4

i've seen that. it's astounding. :stunned:

ImLovingGuyBerryman · February 17, 2009

I personally don't feel bio fuel is a great idea due to the vast amounts of land needed to grow it which could be used for food etc.
I'm all for cleaner cars but for example you're never going to be able to power an SUV with the the same engine as you would a smaller car and you're never going to be able to make a sports car do what it does with the same power either and I can't see the people who buy them wanting to give up either any time soon, with a more sporty car I think they could work to increase efficiency by decreasing weight instead of increasing power, with SUVs I don't know what the best answer is.

^ i agree with that.

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