This guy changed my life

[ColdplayingfromKansas]

^ If anyone does, it's him :nod:

[coldplayhebe12]

This man sounds like an amazing person.

Thank you so much for posting this story!

[Prince Myshkin]

Admirable on one side but he's part of a problem keeping religion going. He's kidding himself and is an inspiration in the same way that Adele is an inspiration to fat women, helping them believe that it isn't bad to be fat. Sure, you can be fat or religious, but don't kid yourself or convince others that it is healthy.

 

His level of delusion is unnerving, but props to his charity work etc.

[Brent]

Admirable on one side but he's part of a problem keeping religion going. He's kidding himself and is an inspiration in the same way that Adele is an inspiration to fat women, helping them believe that it isn't bad to be fat. Sure, you can be fat or religious, but don't kid yourself or convince others that it is healthy.

 

His level of delusion is unnerving, but props to his charity work etc.

 

I think your argument is fatally flawed in assuming that religion is unhealthy. It's not. I don't think you can equate religion and obesity.

 

Adele is inspirational not because she's fat. Nor has she said that being overweight is healthy. You're jumping the gun. A red herring, if you will. She's inspirational to overweight women because she's challenging to stereotypical framework that a superstar is presented within.

 

The bottom line is that he's a good guy who's had his faith tested many, many times: And he's kept it. How does that translate to ruthless, unnerving delusion? You're assuming that religion is to blame? Not that I'm arguing; I'm just trying to put my finger on the logic here.

[Prince Myshkin]

I think your argument is fatally flawed in assuming that religion is unhealthy. It's not. I don't think you can equate religion and obesity.

 

Adele is inspirational not because she's fat. Nor has she said that being overweight is healthy. You're jumping the gun. A red herring, if you will. She's inspirational to overweight women because she's challenging to stereotypical framework that a superstar is presented within.

 

The bottom line is that he's a good guy who's had his faith tested many, many times: And he's kept it. How does that translate to ruthless, unnerving delusion? You're assuming that religion is to blame? Not that I'm arguing; I'm just trying to put my finger on the logic here.

 

In which case let me rephrase the Adele statement.

She has been taken on by many as a positive advertisement for obesity, whether she endorses it herself or not.

 

There is no case to say religion is healthy to the future existence to humanity as a whole.

[Brent]

In which case let me rephrase the Adele statement.

She has been taken on by many as a positive advertisement for obesity, whether she endorses it herself or not.

 

There is no case to say religion is healthy to the future existence to humanity as a whole.

 

You're right, it's not. I'm way to scientific and left-brained to accept it.

 

All I'm saying is this guy's been fucked over so many times, been thrown off the road that he's on, and still gets back up. Religion is simply the example, not the debate. I'm sure you'd change your tune if it was a different example.

 

Religion-be-damned...it's still a good story. To me anyway.

[myloxyloto:)]

Thanks, that was very interesting :)

[Prince Myshkin]

You're right, it's not. I'm way to scientific and left-brained to accept it.

 

All I'm saying is this guy's been fucked over so many times, been thrown off the road that he's on, and still gets back up. Religion is simply the example, not the debate. I'm sure you'd change your tune if it was a different example.

 

Religion-be-damned...it's still a good story. To me anyway.

 

Indeed, but the fact it is religion makes it incredibly depressing.

I can't just ignore that.

 

A man of such dedication and kind hearted nature is somewhat wasted in keeping such an awful thing going. He will be a part of so many good things in peoples lives, much of which is harmless, but essentially he is rather tragically leading to the further condemnation of many others who share his sexuality. We are all part of something that affects others negatively (whether it is capitalism [which I am not against], our place in the food chain or numerous other things) but his seems so destructive and so easy to opt out of and to combat given just a little thought.

[Brent]

I agree. Modern religion is destructive, not constructive. Particularly when it comes to social issues.

 

There's people all over the world, with many orientations and colors, that are made victim by an omniscient nothing. But religion is more than just theism: It's a social construct. It's what makes up various doctrine and idealism. It's much, much more powerful than it should be, especially considering how much it's changed. Modern religion is blasphemous compared to that in the past, even as little as a couple decades ago. This leads me to believe that it is a little oxymoronic.

 

But, in the end, it's about being a good person. And yes, there are innately BAD people involved in religion. I don't care if you're shrouded in delusion and self-appreciation. If you need that framework to make you a good person, I don't care. I don't necessarily need it to be a big part of my life, or a part at all, but I have to admire this guy's patience, sacrifice and dexterity that gets the job done. It's admirable, and like I said, I'm not half the man he is, nor will I ever be.

[Prince Myshkin]

I do hasten to add I can see why he is to be admired, for many of his virtues. And I don't expect people to share my view, as we all have a wide plethora of experiences which dictate how we interpret other people and the ideals we prioritise when judging others. If I had first hand experience of this man or other experiences of religion (both in personal life and in my wider reading) then the acts by which I judge him could well have been radically different. I can only make my judgement (however flimsy and frankly inconsequential it may be) on what I have before me and my own past.

[Prince Myshkin]

I am certainly not in doubt that he's a good guy at heart and that there is plenty to learn from him, as appears to be obvious.

[Brent]

I think it's inspirational in the same sense as the stereotypical "athlete-loses-a-limb" story or the "I-was-abused-as-a-child-but-now-I-own-Walmart" story, it's just using religion as a framework instead of athleticism or abuse. So, of course, it's controversial.

 

Except, in this case, there's no happy ending, and something tells me there won't be. On a macro-level, that is. Inwardly, he's still so happy. Which to me is what matters: Delusion or none.

[Reilly]

I felt slightly compelled by the story, you wrote it brilliantly by the way, but felt sorry for someone who devotes their life towards something so meaningless, and they continue to get persecuted for it. There's no reason for it except they were brought up to believe in it, and when reading the replies I was waiting for the voice of reason:

 

Admirable on one side but he's part of a problem keeping religion going. He's kidding himself and is an inspiration in the same way that Adele is an inspiration to fat women, helping them believe that it isn't bad to be fat. Sure, you can be fat or religious, but don't kid yourself or convince others that it is healthy.

 

His level of delusion is unnerving, but props to his charity work etc.

 

I can't relate to this person because I've never been religious, even coming from a Catholic family I have always argued what our beliefs are supposed to be based on, and if I didn't understand it as a child, it boggles me as to how someone can grow up to adulthood, and especially undergo this sort of outcast lifestyle this man has endured, and still keep praying to the ceiling above his head.

 

It is a story of the strength of the human spirit of belief, perhaps that is inspiring, but because I don't share this belief, and I find it to be a completely ridiculous belief, I can't see how you don't find this story of a pointless waste of a very determined person- being depressing as fuck.

[chuck kottke]

Brent, thanks for posting this story! This got me thinking, and I began to wonder about what is it that leads to all this...

The story of Jesus is uplifting and all about redemption, overcoming hate and corruption, a willingness to sacrifice by caring for those truly in need, and accepting the fate one is dealt.

I think what happens is that the religion gets co-opted by a few who rewrite and embellish on the original story to suit their power positions and rivalries throughout history - for example Paul rewrote the story of Jesus's death to blame the uppity Jews for insisting that Jesus be put to death, claiming the Romans were asking them what to do with Jesus, when in reality, what may be closer to the truth is that the Romans put Jesus to death and the Jews were terrified by the horrible spectacle of another good Jew being killed for standing up against the corruption of the day, and for Jesus and the essenes trying to restore the Kingdom. And then in Europe, given Paul's version of events, when problems arose, it was easy to blame a minority group, the Jews, for anything that went wrong, and to use them as a scapegoat. Never mind the fact that Jesus was a Jew, and the Romans were to blame for his death!

So the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is often used as a pretext to scapegoat gays as being "bad", when in fact the whole story of Sodom and Gomorrah was about greed and pride overtaking people, and God's wrath coming down upon them. Gays are scapegoated I believe because of the twisted few who relish in using power to control some and do damage to others (by convincing others that gays are somehow "bad people" according to God). They are a minority, and because gayness causes a sort of confusion in a world where many like simplified normal patterns of behavior & simple human arrangements with which they feel comfortable with and can make sense of easily in their own minds. Hence, simple formulaic views of human relations and confusion, coupled with job loss and frustration in life, can make some easily persuadable to do the cruelest of things to another human being, and then going out and hurting another who is different and gentle, simply because they are searching for a scapegoat, or are on an ego-trip of sorts as well, is their unfortunate path of action. It's the strangest of things for some to use the same bible that exalts Jesus as the prince of peace, the righteous one, and the savior, to twist a story in the old testament/ Hebrew Bible into something it isn't so they can justify their witch-hunts. This is a real tragedy.

So this man of the cloth has done his best in a world where sometimes bad men create misery for others who are a bit different, and I find his courage and ability to rebound uplifting! He sees the good and gentle souls as the true salt of the earth, and that's where it's at. I hope he keeps on helping others, caring as Jesus did for the sick, the poor, the needy, and setting right the injustices in this world, for he is truly walking in Jesus's footsteps. Walk On!!

[Brent]

It is a story of the strength of the human spirit of belief, perhaps that is inspiring, but because I don't share this belief, and I find it to be a completely ridiculous belief, I can't see how you don't find this story of a pointless waste of a very determined person- being depressing as fuck.

 

Oh, it's definitely depressing as fuck. I just think it's awesome he still has faith. What a quality spirit. Like I've said, it's not whether the goal is pointless. That's moot. The idealistic willpower is what matters.

 

The shit that he's had to wade through, to make it where he is (which arguably isn't that great), is hella depressing. He essentially failed at life's constant battle to be oneself. Which totally sucks: Because in the end, isn't that all anyone really wants?

[Brent]

Brent, thanks for posting this story! This got me thinking, and I began to wonder about what is it that leads to all this...

The story of Jesus is uplifting and all about redemption, overcoming hate and corruption, a willingness to sacrifice by caring for those truly in need, and accepting the fate one is dealt.

I think what happens is that the religion gets co-opted by a few who rewrite and embellish on the original story to suit their power positions and rivalries throughout history - for example Paul rewrote the story of Jesus's death to blame the uppity Jews for insisting that Jesus be put to death, claiming the Romans were asking them what to do with Jesus, when in reality, what may be closer to the truth is that the Romans put Jesus to death and the Jews were terrified by the horrible spectacle of another good Jew being killed for standing up against the corruption of the day, and for Jesus and the essenes trying to restore the Kingdom. And then in Europe, given Paul's version of events, when problems arose, it was easy to blame a minority group, the Jews, for anything that went wrong, and to use them as a scapegoat. Never mind the fact that Jesus was a Jew, and the Romans were to blame for his death!

So the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is often used as a pretext to scapegoat gays as being "bad", when in fact the whole story of Sodom and Gomorrah was about greed and pride overtaking people, and God's wrath coming down upon them. Gays are scapegoated I believe because of the twisted few who relish in using power to control some and do damage to others (by convincing others that gays are somehow "bad people" according to God). They are a minority, and because gayness causes a sort of confusion in a world where many like simplified normal patterns of behavior & simple human arrangements with which they feel comfortable with and can make sense of easily in their own minds. Hence, simple formulaic views of human relations and confusion, coupled with job loss and frustration in life, can make some easily persuadable to do the cruelest of things to another human being, and then going out and hurting another who is different and gentle, simply because they are searching for a scapegoat, or are on an ego-trip of sorts as well, is their unfortunate path of action. It's the strangest of things for some to use the same bible that exalts Jesus as the prince of peace, the righteous one, and the savior, to twist a story in the old testament/ Hebrew Bible into something it isn't so they can justify their witch-hunts. This is a real tragedy.

So this man of the cloth has done his best in a world where sometimes bad men create misery for others who are a bit different, and I find his courage and ability to rebound uplifting! He sees the good and gentle souls as the true salt of the earth, and that's where it's at. I hope he keeps on helping others, caring as Jesus did for the sick, the poor, the needy, and setting right the injustices in this world, for he is truly walking in Jesus's footsteps. Walk On!!

 

Damn dude. You got it figured out.

 

I was thinking the same thing, actually. Not as technical, though.

 

I also had a discussion with someone a couple weeks ago about how the story of Christ can be applied to many other people. Most notably, Martin Luther King Jr. He essentially died to protect the rights of a large group of people: A martyr, if you will.

 

I don't think this guy is that, though. I think he's just a battered spirit that won't give up. His journey is not one for other people (in realizing his homosexuality); it is one of self-enlightenment. Therefore, it is not like the story of Christ. Basically, though, he's given up. However, he's still touching people, like myself. He's truly inspirational to me, and I won't be forgetting his story as one of human perseverance over bigotry, hatefulness and unwarranted oppression.

[Kiame]

I agree. Modern religion is destructive, not constructive. Particularly when it comes to social issues.

 

The only force for positive social progression in my country and so many other places comes from religion. People in my religion have been executed for campaigning for feminism and other social issues.

 

My temple back home is one of the only accepting places of homosexuals and domestic abuse victims in the area. Our faith in God allows so many of us to continue to campaign for equality without fear of consequence from the controlling, evil government because we know we are doing God's work and we know we are encouraging peace. Objective peace that is. We work in favour of everyone deserves the right to live openly and happily.

 

To say so confidently that religion is destructive to social issues is horrible because its not true at all. Things are far deeper than they may seem. It doesn't matter if religion is present or not - a bad environment will produce evil rhetoric. Look at the Soviets. Complete atheists and arguably more evil than the Nazis.

 

Homosexuality has been persecuted for thousands of years in the majority of cultures. Why? Because it's different. Human beings fear difference. Being a red head in Scotland is a hell of a lot better than being a red head in Zimbabwe. Females have been persecuted for thousands of years in the majority of cultures. Why? Because they were under the thumb and powerless. Human beings in positions of authority like to keep the powerless powerless and the powerful powerful, and they will justify it with whatever is closest to them. Usually that is religious rhetoric. Sometimes it's political. Sometimes it's just bat shit insane and is a non sequitur.

 

The route of all these problems lie in basic human emotion and basic human faults. Religion may be used to justify it sometimes - but the real reason is far more complicated than "Oh he is religious so he hates fags". Good people will do good things with our without religion and bad people will do bad things.

 

Christianity and Islam contain more than a billion people each. That is over a billion individuals - each with their own thoughts and opinions. The overwhelming majority of them are good people. They do not run around trying to push discrimination onto others. They do not run around spreading hatred. A small few do and pseudo-intellectuals in the USA who believe they are trendy little scientists start saying stupid things like "Religion is totally evil man" and "I'm way too logical to believe in religion" and act like they are better people than those "stupid" Muslims or Christians.

 

If you want to discuss this issue - discuss the specific sect of Christianity that your little friend prescribes to. Don't use blanket terms. One religion can hold literally entirely opposite views to another. Even the same religion can have entirely different view points. "Religion" is probably one of the most vague words in the English language because it can hold literally opposite meanings depending on who you ask and what religion you're talking about. To take such a vague concept and imply that it's "destructive" is illogical. If you want to talk about destructiveness, you need to be far more specific.

 

There are a lot of good religious people in the world fighting for this cause and many of them are doing a hell of a lot more than you or anyone else on this forum is. Some of them are even dying for it. Every time you act like religion is solely to blame, whether you meant to imply it or not, you do them all a disservice.

[Brent]

^ I stand by my statement but I think it really applies to what Christianity has become in a Western culture. I shouldn't have used a broad statement encompassing all religion in all areas. That was careless on my part.

 

Religion as an institution, whether it contains a million, a billion, trillion, quadrillion, quint-whatever amount of people, though, is largely silencing of those people. For example, my government represents me, but it's not necessarily reflective on how I feel about how things should be run.

 

That's how modern society is organized, like it or not. I don't like being labeled as X or Y but I am because there's no other way to sociologically quantify mass amounts of people within a rational realm of thinking. It's just the way it works.

 

There's no running from the fact that faceless bodies (whether they be governmental, institutional, organizational, religious, what have you) silence individualistic opinions. And when that faceless body forms a specific opinion ("HOMOSEXUALITY IS BAD" or "FOLLOW THE SPAGHETTI MONSTER" or "DON'T KILL PEOPLE"), the members of said institution follow that omniscience. Whether it's traditionally good or bad.

 

Given that, mass amounts of people who follow that will trust the benevolence of that body. It's the way it works. I realize that most Christians (which is what we're talking about here) are not hateful people, but they do believe that gay people go to hell. Why? Because the Bible says so. No questions asked. That's why I believe it's destructive with little logic.

 

No, I should not have applied it to all religion. That's a my-bad.

 

And while the overwhelming majority of religious people are good people, they still are grouped together and labeled. The good thing about Western modernity is that you CHOOSE to have that label or not. Which is a good thing.

 

Also hi Kiame :wacky:

[Kiame]

I shouldn't have used a broad statement encompassing all religion in all areas. That was careless on my part.

 

That's all I was concerned about :).

 

I realize that most Christians (which is what we're talking about here) are not hateful people, but they do believe that gay people go to hell. Why? Because the Bible says so. No questions asked. That's why I believe it's destructive with little logic.

 

I have tiny problem with this part as well.

 

You're probably right in guessing that most Christians believe gay people go to hell when they die. But I don't think you're right about saying that belief is "destructive".

 

Unless they are actively going out of there way to deny rights to homosexuals (which I don't believe even a quarter of Christians in the USA are) it's meaningless and there is nothing you can do about it. All you can say is you disagree.

 

I know a lot of Christians who believe homosexuals go to hell and most of them are, strangely enough, incredibly nice and caring when they meet a homosexual. When I ask them about this, they say that they simply see homosexuals the same way they see people who have sex outside of marriage. They think they are sinners, but they don't hate them and they don't wish any harm on them.

 

Is it strange to think that way? Probably. But I don't have a problem with it because I'm not interested in trying to outlaw thoughts or opinions. I'm not going to lock a man up for wanting to kill someone. I'm only going to lock him up if he tries to act on it. Otherwise you are promoting thought police.

 

So I only care about homophobic Christian believes when they are picketing homosexuals funerals or trying to deny them basic civil rights. And I'm very confident in saying most Christians don't do anything like that and nor do they have any interest in doing so. And yes, as much as I disagree with them, I believe they have the right to believe whatever they want about whoever they want.

 

Why am I bringing this up? Because I believe that gay rights advocates are attacking religion in the wrong way. They are bringing up things like what you just said - and all that does is hurt their case because they seem like condescending smug douche bags who are trying to regulate people's thoughts. They ironically stereotype religious people, they spread myths and they act like any religious opinion on their sexuality is WRONG WRONG WRONG! And that's, in my opinion, a huge part of the reason why the gay rights movements across the Western world in the last few years haven't changed much. They're going about it in the wrong way and I know gay people who dislike it as much as I do.

 

 

Also hi Kiame :wacky:

 

Oh hi buddy.

[Coeurli]

At first I didn't feel like I needed to intervene but now I do :angry:

 

1. Religion isn't bad in itself. What's so bad about believing that there's something more to life than pure science ? ( I exaggerate it, but you know what I mean)

2. The main problem of religion can't be solved, and you know why ? Because its problem is that it's made by human. That's why it's imperfect. That's why it can be extreme, or say homosexuals will go to hell : only because it was decided by a bunch of individuals in a certain society at a certain time.

3. I'm a Christian, a Catholic, and I believe in God. Please people, don't say religion is pointless : I take it as personal disrespect.

4. I don't think gay people will go to hell. It's hard enough to love/be loved in this world. The original message of my religion is LOVE, not HATE. So I think God will take anyone who lives in love rather than hate. (God loves everyone, btw) It's not because I'm Catholic that I agree with everything the Church does or says.

 

My personal opinion :Why isn't religion pointless, even in this man's story ? I believe FAITH in life, in love, hey, even in God gave him the strength to move on, to go on in his life even when PEOPLE would do the most horrible things to him.

I get that non-religious people won't probably get it, and that's OK. It's my personal belief, and should not be discussed. (because it's a belief and there's no point in making a debate out of believes, because a belief, by definition, is not something you can justify, and argue about)

 

And anyway, I agree with Brent about one thing: this story isn't about religion. I think it's about how strong the man is.

 

There was no need to make a debate about religion out of this story. I think his point was to show us he was impressed by the strength, the will of this man who has gone through awful things in life, whatever those may be, whatever the causes were, but still is optimistic and does what he can to help people in need. This man could have turned bad, given his story, he could have turned to hate. He could have turned evil. He didn't. That's what the story truly is about, and people who are against religion shouldn't start a debate out of it, especially since our personal opinion on religion has a lot to have with our personal history, and so it's difficult to be objective enough on that subject.

[Kiame]

. That's what the story truly is about, and people who are against religion shouldn't start a debate out of it, especially since our personal opinion on religion has a lot to have with our personal history, and so it's difficult to be objective enough on that subject.

 

No one against religion has started a debate in this thread. I don't see where you've come to that conclusion.

 

But I agree with the rest of your post :).

[Coeurli]

^:thinking: Well I'm very tired but I think someone said something about religion being pointless, and others, not saying they were against religion, but their posts made me think so (because of how they talked about religion). If I'm wrong I'm sorry about that.

 

Oh wait. I'm very tired :shame:

Ok I'll start again:

 

Yes, there was a debate about religion in this thread, since people started arguing about it, and then Brent wanted to remind them that he didn't think the story was about religion, and people started to argue (I mean give arguments, not fighting) about religion again....:thinking:

So yes I think there was a debate started somewhere.

 

What I think is a debate about religion starts in the middle of page 2. Maybe it's not a debate, but I take it as that.

[LoryABjerre]

If you want to discuss this issue - discuss the specific sect of Christianity that your little friend prescribes to. Don't use blanket terms. One religion can hold literally entirely opposite views to another. Even the same religion can have entirely different view points. "Religion" is probably one of the most vague words in the English language because it can hold literally opposite meanings depending on who you ask and what religion you're talking about. To take such a vague concept and imply that it's "destructive" is illogical. If you want to talk about destructiveness, you need to be far more specific.

 

 

all religions are sects dictated by men. it's been the love and tolerance has been banned in religions. simply because of all the world says the name of God.

people put in the place of God. it's already bad.

they just need an example of all religions are racist. for example. some religions refuse the marriage because not the same religion.

 

the first commandment not respected.

[Prince Myshkin]

Too much religious sympathy in this thread. It would take me far too long to untangle.

This will be the most depressing thread in the lounge this year.

[Reilly]

Oh, it's definitely depressing as fuck. I just think it's awesome he still has faith. What a quality spirit. Like I've said, it's not whether the goal is pointless. That's moot. The idealistic willpower is what matters.

 

It's frustrating that I did acknowledge that very point and I have to repeat myself. I get the idea, the willpower, the strength to carry on, etc etc, but the depressing side of it for me is that he's gone through all of this for nothing, not just that he's gone through it, but it was a total waste of time, and he's an absolute moron for never questioning his belief which stands directly against his sexuality. You would think someone with a bit of sense would realise that if homosexuality exists, then maybe, just maybe their religion is wrong.

 

I couldn't make it more clear.