It's part of the reason why young people should be introduced to feminism. Solidarity from your own peers can work wonders and prevent some of these scenarios.

 

I found it weird that there's not been a proper thread on feminism that I could find that lasted more than about three pages. Given that there's a decent percentage of teenage girls on this messageboard I'd have thought it would be an ideal place for some solidarity to flourish (and maybe it does in the PM's or other areas of people's lives) but I feel that a lack of such an outlet (when many use this mb as a place to document their thoughts and coming of age years) shows just how much people don't really talk about these issues. And I find that scary if I'm honest.

 

Maybe I'm being too dramatic.

I love you too :love: and girl you are beautiful, I don't believe you need makeup but at the same time I can completely understand you, you are at an age where peer pressure is so much greater than it is for me right now.

I was the first girl to wear trousers in our tiny primary school class and I got made fun of so much to the point that I just gave in and went back to wearing dresses and skirts.

 

I think makeup is fine to wear, it depends on the person, some people feel that it makes them more confident and for some it's their way of expressing themselves.

 

That thing you said about girls trying to make you more girly annoys me so much, it reminds me of this episode of hannah montanna where she tells her best friend she is gross and manly and needs to look like her to get a boyfriend because she is embarrassing her.

 

omg i remember that episode, its sooooo dumb that it actually happens in real life and i guess they want to be like The Beauty Expert of some dumb shit

 

I agree that makeup is fine theres nothing really wrong with it, its that I should be free to decide when or how much I use. For example I only use eye makeup such as eyeliner and mascara to school and in parties (which i go to once in a blue moon) some foundation and natural shades of eyeshadow because idk thats what I like and thats the way I express myself. It's not the right way or the wrong way, its the way I do it.

 

Something that also annoys me is when people praise women who look beautiful naturally and shame those who use too much makeup. Why does it even matter to you? Or having plastic surgery is a fake way to hide your "ugly". I wouldn't call my mom fake because she has done those things, because thats what she likes and she wants to do it for herself, not to please everyone else.

And why give a special little star to those that are pretty naturally because they didnt do anything! Like you have to be very pretty but it has to be effortless. And shame the women who spend money, time and practice to achieve to look pretty?

I belive that women should look, act and be whoever they want to be and not be judged just because they have to fit a norm of society. Thats what its like to be a woman! Being judged my men, society, religion and sadly us women judge eachother.

 

I guess I'm a feminist but heavier on gender equality than misandry.

I do have to say that I love being a girl. Not only am I girly and do enjoy putting on make up and dressing up prettily. But I also love that have really awesome friends and an awesome boyfriend who wouldn't say or think differently of me if I decided not to wear make up.

I'm also at a great point in my life where I give next to no shit about how I look most of the time.

It's also a common thing to describe a successful or commanding woman who takes control as manly. As if to say a woman can't be successful. It demeans women and further reduces the small spectrum of womanhood that is seen to be acceptable. Whilst a man would be seen as assertive, a female is often seen as a real bitch.

I know it's Nicki Minaj, she makes some sense.

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpt8WkyW4Pc]Bossing Up: Nicki Minaj - YouTube[/ame]

I'm also at a great point in my life where I give next to no shit about how I look most of the time.

 

Apparently this becomes even more common in your thirties and forties (according to several people I know who have spoken about maturing, settling down - not necessarily for a family - and looking at life in a different way) for a certain type of person. Not everyone, obviously, as some really fear growing older appearance-wise.

I know it's Nicki Minaj, she makes some sense.

 

 

Fair points. I'd still have more respect for her if she didn't make her living wearing revealing clothes. She is playing the game, but I don't see much merit in that. I guess it's better that we have people like her who can give out mixed messages and sometimes get it right, than people who give out constantly negative messages, but as I've said elsewhere on the board, I've seen her come onto an interview and give young girls the advice of 'shoulders back, tits out' which wasn't even said without irony and wasn't even said as an attack on the system. Still though, yes she made some good points there.

Apparently this becomes even more common in your thirties and forties (according to several people I know who have spoken about maturing, settling down - not necessarily for a family - and looking at life in a different way) for a certain type of person. Not everyone, obviously, as some really fear growing older appearance-wise.

 

I'm only in my twenties but I think that's true. I kind of stopped caring but it also gets much easier because the people I know don't seem to care that much anymore. When I was at school, some girls got bullied because they didn't dress girly enough, other because they were 'overdressed'.

I think especially the end part where she's saying all the things women are expected to be D; I couldn't live with that pressure.

Indeed. The teenage years are really weird in retrospect. It's the cliche that you feel as though they are gonna be the most important part of your life and the pressures won't be the same and there's gonna be so many other things going on in the future, but it's true. I didn't become who I am today until I was about 21. So really I've only had 3 years of it. I'm excited to see where I'll be at in five years time.

I think especially the end part where she's saying all the things women are expected to be D; I couldn't live with that pressure.

 

But then I wouldn't play the sexy girl for strangers so much if I was a girl so I couldn't imagine getting into that situation. But that's just me. She's fine to do it but i won't respect her for it, and she won't care anyway.

Indeed. The teenage years are really weird in retrospect. It's the cliche that you feel as though they are gonna be the most important part of your life and the pressures won't be the same and there's gonna be so many other things going on in the future, but it's true. I didn't become who I am today until I was about 21. So really I've only had 3 years of it. I'm excited to see where I'll be at in five years time.

 

I'm the same! I hated being a teenager. I was trying to hard to fit in because you'd get bullied at my school otherwise. I've changed a lot since I moved away and this also goes for the way I dress.

The things I took seriously back then are the things I don't take seriously now. And I still take certain things seriously (hence this thread), so it's not like I've just lost motivation. I find it depressing when people's focuses don't shift throughout their life (I'm talking about privileged people here - obviously some peoples focuses remain the same through necessity).

^ I completely agree.

 

...to be able to enjoy my sexuality in whichever way I liked, and not be shamed by others for doing so.

...for people not to grab for insults intended to shame me based on my gender and/or sexuality the first instant they wish to insult me - 'bitch', 'slut', 'whore', 'little miss petty' (a recent amusing one).

 

The double-standard is ridiculous.

 

I've recently met guy I kind of like and one of my male friends is basically trying to stop me from getting to know him (even though he doesn't know him) because he's obviously just after sex and he's convinced I'm gonna fall in love with him. So annoying.

Fair points. I'd still have more respect for her if she didn't make her living wearing revealing clothes. She is playing the game, but I don't see much merit in that. I guess it's better that we have people like her who can give out mixed messages and sometimes get it right, than people who give out constantly negative messages, but as I've said elsewhere on the board, I've seen her come onto an interview and give young girls the advice of 'shoulders back, tits out' which wasn't even said without irony and wasn't even said as an attack on the system. Still though, yes she made some good points there.

 

Hm, okay well I dont know Nicki Minaj personally but I think she's free to wear whatever she wants? if thats what she wants to do for living (which she doesnt, at the end shes touring and recording so she at least does something other than just wearing revealing clothing) then power to her. The 'shoulders back tits out' thing is a little weird but i think you got the context wrong, I hope.

And to top it off, if they do take control of their body and enjoy their sexuality, they are also seen as a slut. It needn't matter if ... they are merely enjoying their bodies, it's seen as shameful.

I'd still have more respect for her if she didn't make her living wearing revealing clothes.

:whistle:

 

(I do agree though that the "shoulders back tits out" thing is stupid)

Hm, okay well I dont know Nicki Minaj personally but I think she's free to wear whatever she wants? if thats what she wants to do for living (which she doesnt, at the end shes touring and recording so she at least does something other than just wearing revealing clothing) then power to her. The 'shoulders back tits out' thing is a little weird but i think you got the context wrong, I hope.

 

:whistle:

 

(I do agree though that the "shoulders back tits out" thing is stupid)

 

Of course she's free to wear what she wants. Problem being, she's not wearing what she wants, nor is she simply enjoying her body. She's 'playing the sexy girl for others' as she admitted. She's wearing little clothes because she has to (except she doesn't have to). And she's doing that alongside telling girls to do the same. So whilst my advice appears to be contradictory, I can't respect her for that. I will respect her right to do it, but I won't respect her. Like I said though, she won't care.

Incidentally, I'm still learning, so I do appreciate the feedback, especially any parts where I may be wrong, so if I put forward my views on it hopefully you can sharpen up my understanding of it all.

 

But from my perspective (which can be a hinderance but quite useful - certainly not perfect though), I just feel that it's fine individually and when it comes down to it there is nothing dreadful about what Minaj does (apart from the advice I heard her give to young girls - but she appears to give good advice too). It's just when it's part of a wider thing of it being part of the culture for women to have to behave that way. That's when it becomes problematic.

 

Beyonce is held up as one of the most powerful women in the world and is a feminist. She is clearly an intelligent woman, great at what she does and she has even been quoted as saying things like "Equality is a myth, and for some reason everyone accepts that women don't make as much money as men do," she rails. "I truly believe that women should be financially independent from their men. And let's face it, money gives men the power to run the show. It gives men the power to define value. They define what's sexy. And men define what's feminine. It's ridiculous."

 

Brilliant stuff. And she's using her platform well there. Obviously not all her interviews have to be about this but apparently she talks about such things regularly. Given I don't usually read her interviews, the fact I have seen this makes me hope that she has said things like this more than once, otherwise it's a fluke I saw it. But anyway, great she said it.

 

On the other hand though, whilst she complains about men defining sexiness, she does it in a mens magazine where she's posing nearly naked in seven photos (that's a lot of photo's. How many photo's was she photographed without the emphasis on her flesh? None), taken by infamous photographer Terry Richardson, a man known for his sexualised photos and who has been repeatedly accused of sexual exploitation by young models.

 

If the face of independent women worldwide hasn't the control over her body to stop this then it's a tragedy, in my eyes. I guess in that respect I've been a little harsh on nicki minaj as she's not moved up to the status of beyonce just yet, so I'm happen expecting too much of her when she's not been in the public eye so long. After all, she is at least giving out mixed messages, which is better than simply negative messages.

 

I just feel like part of this stuff is simply repackaged exploitation, sold back to people as feminism. A successful woman is brilliant for feminism, no matter what! I don't personally feel that way. You don't have as much control over your body as you think if you're expected to wear revealing clothes to succeed in life, and then have to. You're simply serving up misogyny in a supposedly acceptable package, aimed predominantly at the very men who would have been ogling you the very same had you been simply a woman who only took her clothes off for magazines and didn't produce anything else such as music. It's not too bad individually, but when that's what is being expected by all successful women who are what is deemed as attractive, it's depressing. It's certainly not ideal.

The big question here basically is whether wearing little clothing is their decision or whether this is all a marketing ploy to sell records?

 

I don't know how I feel about this, to me Nicki Minaj is portraying a character who she calls "Harajuku Barbie" and along with this barbie character she dresses like a barbie would, people assume this is the real Nicki and judge her for this. Whether this character is purely to sell records is debatable. People view Beyonce as a strong and independent woman though she also tends to wear less clothing, probably because of the message portrayed in her song lyrics and unlike Nicki she is consistent in interviews. On the other hand there are people who criticise singers like Taylor Swift who portray this image of being girly and "pure" and singing about love and heartbreak.

 

The issues seem to stem from stereotyping women, those who wear less clothing + more makeup are generally considered to be less respectable, those who cover up more + wear less makeup are generally considered to be more respectable. I believe women need to judged more on their achievements, personal qualities etc. but this is more difficult to do because there are fewer women in highly ranked positions, the main women role models we do see are through the media and through this outlet these things are rarely put across, beauty is seen as the most important thing.

Interesting points.

 

Please bear in mind that when I speak of Minaj I'm speaking as an outsider to her art. I don't know much about her (and thus my opinions are far from well formed) but I do think I come at this from an angle that a lot of people who just listen to the music and catch the odd interview (the majority of people) come from. I've no idea about any of her alter egos or anything like that and if this is the case then it adds an extra dimension. The only problem being this isn't what is portrayed in the media to the casual viewer (this could be down to media reporting which has inherent problems with sexism, or it could be down to just how much Minaj pushes the concept of her alter egos and explains them to her fans) and some of her fans may not be aware of this given their age (this is conjecture, I confess) and therefore she will be seen by many to be the one dimensional flesh puppet that she is shown as at times.

 

Perhaps the problem is not in the message that is being put across, if there are subtler ironies that i've clearly missed, but the fact that so much of her target audience are children and therefore may miss out on exactly what part of her act is promoting and instead taking only the negatives from it.

 

It's a complex issue.

Did you guys see the new Dove campaign.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=litXW91UauE]Dove Real Beauty Sketches - YouTube[/ame]

 

I would advise for people to watch it first and then read this rather good blog post on it. Many of things which angered her about it kind of annoyed me too.

http://jazzylittledrops.tumblr.com/post/48118645174/why-doves-real-beauty-sketches-video-makes-me

Was good to read the blog post. I certainly didn't see all of that with my own eyes. I could see certain sides to it that weren't too great, but this is one of the reasons I think this kind of thing should be taught from an earlier age. Teaching people how to critically look at the world around them. Teach them about certain structures in society and the impact they can have on people. Because if you don't read up on these things it's really hard to spot that all the tiny things that add together can have such a negative impact.

 

It's so easy to write off every individual thing and say 'loosen up, I'm not sexist, it's only a joke, you should be flattered' but unless people look deeper into the problem or have it explained to them (men especially), it just seems like an overreaction.

 

To explain to somebody who doesn't realise their actions/words are sexist, and wouldn't do them if they realised, can take a good ten to fifteen minutes of discussion, simply because they've never encountered these ideas before and never considered the greater impact. And that's because at no point are these explained to people and if you want to get involved in these things you do have to do your own searching. And people who aren't passionate about these things just aren't going to do that. And if you look at the important things that people aren't interested in it's no wonder they don't engage with this stuff when they don't have to.

 

That's why I hope it can be driven to the front through activism. So it has to be confronted. So many people could be won over to the cause and so many battles could be won if people were introduced to it in the right way.

I agreed so much with that blog post, just watching the ad the first time made me feel as uncomfortable. I wouldn't want to repeat what she wrote so I'll just say that it's sad that people still think its okay to say "oh no but you ARE pretty" if someone is feeling unattractive. Reminds me when i told my mom that kids were making fun of me when they said i wasn't femenine and she said "but you ARE femenine so theres no problem" when instead she should have said "it doesnt matter if you are or arent femenine you're wonderful just the way you are" cheesy, but a lot better.

 

I actually had this idea to draw myself on a bad day where i felt really ugly and draw myself on a good day when I felt pretty and see the difference and the ad tries to give a message but not a good one, or at least not a good conclusion.

:(

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/10000233/Nipple-tattooing-sweeps-UK-as-women-strive-for-perfect-boobs.html