There are coming up to 4 billion females in the world. Humans have had full behavioural modernity for 50,000 years. You'd think societies would be able to handle differences that pose no threat to others a hell of a lot better by now. And you'd think we'd be in a very different place in terms of equality, even (as a basic and underwhelming minimum) simply in terms of those who do fall within that magic spectrum of supposed acceptance. We aren't. The human race is so strange.

Well when you hold unrealistic expectations towards humanity in general you're bound to be dissapointed.

Well when you hold unrealistic expectations towards humanity in general you're bound to be dissapointed.

 

Equality after thousands of years? What part of that is unrealistic?

A guy in my english class said "I hate it when girls swear. They're like the beauty of life they shouldn't swear" the other day and i got sooooo mad

Yeah, my Nana is like that. She really thinks a woman's place is in the kitchen and in the meantime men should be able to 'set the world to rights' and swear and things.

 

It's really frustrating.

My grandma lives with us, and she's very old school. She's kinda afraid of my dad for some reason (much to his surprise). She's always wanted to have a boy but nope she was blessed with 3 daughters :cheesy: For her, men are by default better than women, and men shouldn't do the dishes because it's degrading. When she told us that, my parents and I were shocked, we kinda got mad and had to explain to her that we're in 21st century now :cheesy:

My grandma lives with us, and she's very old school. She's kinda afraid of my dad for some reason (much to his surprise). She's always wanted to have a boy but nope she was blessed with 3 daughters :cheesy: For her, men are by default better than women, and men shouldn't do the dishes because it's degrading. When she told us that, my parents and I were shocked, we kinda got mad and had to explain to her that we're in 21st century now :cheesy:

 

 

i guess you may end up terming me an "old fashioned" girl. Like your grandma, I wouldn't let a man do the dishes if i'm there...i just can't. I don't even let my male friends help me carry my books. i guess it has something to do with culture, i don't know. I just can't bring myself to letting them do things like that. :\

 

i guess it has something to do with culture too...

My gran and my mum to some extent believe in gender roles, it's always me asked to do the dishes or do the cooking but my brother doesn't agree with this bullshit and we take turns (unless I bribe him with cookies).

I crap on roles, and it's always fun seeing men staring at me in disbelief when I'm doing manly stuff tihi :cheesy:

Snoop Lion (Dogg) tells us: "Bitches ain't shit but hoes and tricks, lick on these nuts and suck the dick"

 

Such a progressive, gender conscious thinker, trying to destroy outdated patriarchal stereotypes, y'all.

^:nod:

 

Chris Brown goes even further tho. An example for all men :nod:

Another interesting thing we should always consider when we watch Dove clips:

It is part of the unilever group. Just like axe is.

 

Here's an axe clip :nice:

 

 

 

oh the irony

 

...

 

no words

I always thought the Axe/Lynx adverts were really weird. Not as weird as if the roles were reversed and it was hundreds of men running towards a woman for sex, of course.

Okay, I dislike sexism as much as the next sane human being, but let's play devil's advocate, here...

 

Snoop Lion (Dogg) tells us: "Bitches ain't shit but hoes and tricks, lick on these nuts and suck the dick"

 

Such a progressive, gender conscious thinker, trying to destroy outdated patriarchal stereotypes, y'all.

 

What about Beyonce laying into men every five minutes?

 

I would kick Chris Brown in the nadgers if I met him - for his "music", for a start - but if women are really offended by misogynistic popstars like him, they shouldn't buy his records. He only churns them out because someone's buying them, and I've never seen a male Chris Brown fan.

 

I always thought the Axe/Lynx adverts were really weird. Not as weird as if the roles were reversed and it was hundreds of men running towards a woman for sex, of course.

 

We also have a show in Britain called Loose Women, for those that don't know, which is a daytime chat show where five middle-aged woman moan about men for half an hour. And there are adverts, tv shows, music videos and films in which women perve on men, and they get away with it, but over here, there were two male commentators on Sky Sports who were sacked after making sexist comments. Generally women, we have your back. We don't stand for sexism in the media.

 

But gender discrimination isn't a big thing in the West. Okay, my girlfriend can't walk through the park, get on a bus or stand in a club without men chatting her up (or trying), but that's, eight or nine times out ten, as bad as most women will get in the UK, anyway.

 

There are countries though where women are horribly discriminated against, they can't work, they can't marry who they want and they're expected to be slaves. I think it's a whole lot more important to stand up for them, than Snoop Dogg's "bitches".

 

I'm not having a go at anyone in this thread, I just think it's an interesting topic. There are a lot of women who have it really bad in life, it pisses me off when someone as lucky as Beyonce doesn't see it.

Okay, I dislike sexism as much as the next sane human being, but let's play devil's advocate, here...

 

 

 

What about Beyonce laying into men every five minutes?

 

I would kick Chris Brown in the nadgers if I met him - for his "music", for a start - but if women are really offended by misogynistic popstars like him, they shouldn't buy his records. He only churns them out because someone's buying them, and I've never seen a male Chris Brown fan.

 

 

 

We also have a show in Britain called Loose Women, for those that don't know, which is a daytime chat show where five middle-aged woman moan about men for half an hour. And there are adverts, tv shows, music videos and films in which women perve on men, and they get away with it, but over here, there were two male commentators on Sky Sports who were sacked after making sexist comments. Generally women, we have your back. We don't stand for sexism in the media.

 

But gender discrimination isn't a big thing in the West. Okay, my girlfriend can't walk through the park, get on a bus or stand in a club without men chatting her up (or trying), but that's, eight or nine times out ten, as bad as most women will get in the UK, anyway.

 

There are countries though where women are horribly discriminated against, they can't work, they can't marry who they want and they're expected to be slaves. I think it's a whole lot more important to stand up for them, than Snoop Dogg's "bitches".

 

I'm not having a go at anyone in this thread, I just think it's an interesting topic. There are a lot of women who have it really bad in life, it pisses me off when someone as lucky as Beyonce doesn't see it.

 

Much of what I have seen from Beyonce with regards to 'man hating' is actually aimed at the industry and those in control of objective beauty, who are overwhelmingly male given their dominance in the boardrooms and higher paid work. It's not an attack on all men, though those who enable and trivialise this phenomenon usually end up in the line of fire, which is natural.

 

Plenty of feminists do call Beyonce out on certain aspects, it's more that they don't have the platform that others do, and the media headlines tend to love swallowing loud mouthed perceived 'man haters' shouting vitriol rather than reasoned arguments promoting feminism. Though that is the case with tabloid headlines generally, across the board. But the debate is very much there, you just have to search for it.

 

I agree that there is sense in women boycotting the art of someone who beats women but it's much more complex than that. It ignores the fact that in this culture (to a lesser extent than others - violent oppression of women - in one sense, but more in another - celebrity culture buying someone a free pass to do as they want) a lot of women see such behaviour far less shocking than they should do. It also ignores the right to remove the artist from the art, something I often practice. Great art has been made by dreadful people. You can despise the person but adore the art. Some people interact with the art on a far more personal level than others, some just consume and don't overthink things. Without meaning to make rash judgements, I think you're far more likely to find consumers in that area of music (though it is not unique to pop).

 

I also don't think it's worth putting Loose Women forward as anything close to feminist, or something feminists would promote. It's pretty awful. They spend a lot of time making easy jokes about how useless men are, then as soon as a male guest comes on they are all over him. I think they are more a product of the culture that we live in. Enlightened to an extent but still under the same pressures as ever materially and physically, simply repackaged. It's also worth looking at the fact that the sports presenters were coming from a place of genuinely feeling that a woman couldn't do a job because she was a woman, and there was a good deal of anger behind the comments, and then a few women making crap jokes about male inadequacy from a far more oppressed position. Loose Women is shit, but it really isn't all that comparable to Andy Gray and Richard Keyes. (Incidentally I did state when starting the thread that I know that men are under pressures too - I am a man after all. It's simply not the same on a general level as what women are facing). In much the same way Loose Women is a shitty consequence of this society, the sexism women in the west encounter every day is a shitty, and let's be honest, shittier consequence too.

 

Your comments on gender discrimination in the west are misguided at best. You're not paying attention if you believe that.

 

There are people fighting for slaves but that does not mean we do not need change in our society. In what other area of life do we say 'well, you've not got the same rights, it's not fair, it's an outdated system and half the population are being let down by society, but get over it, in the lesser developed areas of the world it's worse.' We should be fighting the battle on all fronts until equality is worldwide. We haven't got it here so why give up? It's just a bizarre position to take, and an understandable position to take from someone in a privileged position who isn't as affected by this as many others in society. I'm not sure you're aware of how that makes you sound. I mean you started that post off as devils advocate but basically ended it by saying women should quit moaning because they've got it better than they realise.

Much of what I have seen from Beyonce with regards to 'man hating' is actually aimed at the industry and those in control of objective beauty, who are overwhelmingly male given their dominance in the boardrooms and higher paid work. It's not an attack on all men, though those who enable and trivialise this phenomenon usually end up in the line of fire, which is natural.

 

Plenty of feminists do call Beyonce out on certain aspects, it's more that they don't have the platform that others do, and the media headlines tend to love swallowing loud mouthed perceived 'man haters' shouting vitriol rather than reasoned arguments promoting feminism. Though that is the case with tabloid headlines generally, across the board. But the debate is very much there, you just have to search for it.

 

I agree that there is sense in women boycotting the art of someone who beats women but it's much more complex than that. It ignores the fact that in this culture (to a lesser extent than others - violent oppression of women - in one sense, but more in another - celebrity culture buying someone a free pass to do as they want) a lot of women see such behaviour far less shocking than they should do. It also ignores the right to remove the artist from the art, something I often practice. Great art has been made by dreadful people. You can despise the person but adore the art. Some people interact with the art on a far more personal level than others, some just consume and don't overthink things. Without meaning to make rash judgements, I think you're far more likely to find consumers in that area of music (though it is not unique to pop).

 

I also don't think it's worth putting Loose Women forward as anything close to feminist, or something feminists would promote. It's pretty awful. They spend a lot of time making easy jokes about how useless men are, then as soon as a male guest comes on they are all over him. I think they are more a product of the culture that we live in. Enlightened to an extent but still under the same pressures as ever materially and physically, simply repackaged. It's also worth looking at the fact that the sports presenters were coming from a place of genuinely feeling that a woman couldn't do a job because she was a woman, and there was a good deal of anger behind the comments, and then a few women making crap jokes about male inadequacy from a far more oppressed position. Loose Women is shit, but it really isn't all that comparable to Andy Gray and Richard Keyes. (Incidentally I did state when starting the thread that I know that men are under pressures too - I am a man after all. It's simply not the same on a general level as what women are facing). In much the same way Loose Women is a shitty consequence of this society, the sexism women in the west encounter every day is a shitty, and let's be honest, shittier consequence too.

 

Your comments on gender discrimination in the west are misguided at best. You're not paying attention if you believe that.

 

There are people fighting for slaves but that does not mean we do not need change in our society. In what other area of life do we say 'well, you've not got the same rights, it's not fair, it's an outdated system and half the population are being let down by society, but get over it, in the lesser developed areas of the world it's worse.' We should be fighting the battle on all fronts until equality is worldwide. We haven't got it here so why give up? It's just a bizarre position to take, and an understandable position to take from someone in a privileged position who isn't as affected by this as many others in society. I'm not sure you're aware of how that makes you sound. I mean you started that post off as devils advocate but basically ended it by saying women should quit moaning because they've got it better than they realise.

 

I never said women should "quit moaning" because they've got it okay. I said that in comparison to some places on Earth, women here are lucky; if something should be done about feminism, shouldn't it be done in countries where women don't even have the right to vote?

 

My point about Loose Women for a start is that if two male commentators can be sacked, that show shouldn't be allowed on air.

 

Also, what you've said about the art and the artist doesn't make sense; if the art is misogynistic, it should surely be boycotted?

 

As I said originally, I'm not disagreeing with anything that anyone has said, I'm simply trying to make the point that in our society, it's not as bad as it is elsewhere in the world. At the start of the last century, there were women that died in our country fighting for the vote, and a few weeks ago, we held a state funeral for our first female prime minister. That's how far it went, and the work's continuing.

 

Obviously, sexism exists in society, but what I'm saying is that it's nothing compared to what happens in other countries. That's the point I'm making. My comments are not misguided, they are, as I said, trying to look at things from the other side of the coin.

I never said women should "quit moaning" because they've got it okay. I said that in comparison to some places on Earth, women here are lucky; if something should be done about feminism, shouldn't it be done in countries where women don't even have the right to vote?

 

My point about Loose Women for a start is that if two male commentators can be sacked, that show shouldn't be allowed on air.

 

As I said originally, I'm not disagreeing with anything that anyone has said, I'm simply trying to make the point that in our society, it's not as bad as it is elsewhere in the world. At the start of the last century, there were women that died in our country fighting for the vote, and a few weeks ago, we held a state funeral for our first female prime minister. That's how far it went, and the work's continuing.

 

Obviously, there still exists sexism in society, but what I'm saying is that it's nothing compared to what happens in other countries. That's the point I'm making. My comments are not misguided, they are, as I said, trying to look at things from the other side of the coin.

 

 

Of course we are lucky compared to other parts of the world nobody is denying that we are just discussing issues we have within our society and things we can relate to.I am so grateful that I am able to get an education and go to University and I have so much respect for those campaigning for the right of girls to get an education and risking their lives.Just because we have it better than others it doesn't make it equal and that doesn't mean we just stop.

 

I see a lot of arguments like this on the internet where one side downplays the other's problems and tries to make a point out of only a few instances and it kind of reminds me of the reverse racism argument.

 

basically I agree with Gregg.

I never said women should "quit moaning" because they've got it okay. I said that in comparison to some places on Earth, women here are lucky; if something should be done about feminism, shouldn't it be done in countries where women don't even have the right to vote?

 

My point about Loose Women for a start is that if two male commentators can be sacked, that show shouldn't be allowed on air.

 

Also, what you've said about the art and the artist doesn't make sense; if the art is misogynistic, it should surely be boycotted?

 

As I said originally, I'm not disagreeing with anything that anyone has said, I'm simply trying to make the point that in our society, it's not as bad as it is elsewhere in the world. At the start of the last century, there were women that died in our country fighting for the vote, and a few weeks ago, we held a state funeral for our first female prime minister. That's how far it went, and the work's continuing.

 

Obviously, sexism exists in society, but what I'm saying is that it's nothing compared to what happens in other countries. That's the point I'm making. My comments are not misguided, they are, as I said, trying to look at things from the other side of the coin.

 

You didn't say it, but it was pretty much implicit. It is indeed like the reverse racism argument in that you get privileged people complaining about hypocrisies (some of which aren't supported by those after equality, some of which are simply invented or incomparable to real problems - in your case with Gray and Keyes/Loose Women you have achieved both. As i have stated with the Loose Women show, it's shit but it doesn't come from genuine hate and a belief that men are inferior.)

 

You also seem to be of the impression that people aren't doing anything to help those in other countries. Once again, just because something isn't being reported, doesn't mean it isn't happening. You also have to look at the fact that individual western women don't have the power to change feminism globally, topple dreadful regimes and free slaves worldwide, but they do have the power to change their own society. They also have a rightful expectation that they should keep pushing in order to achieve these aims. Does it not occur to you that this push is furthered by the more extreme feminists and that whilst not everyone agrees with them, they are integral to the cause? Without them, much less would be done and even if they fall short in some regards, their actions are necessary evil (they are of course not evil, this is simply a phrase) in the drive for equality? In all movements you need some bashing down the walls so the less extreme can see just exactly how far to go and how far is reasonable. There are extremes in all movements, but by condemning a few (and the panel of Loose Women was a strange target to pick) and thereby discrediting the movement as a whole, it just makes you look a bit silly.

 

But as I said, we are living in a culture where much of these misogynistic norms are tolerated, so why is it such a surprise to see young women buying into it when it is promoted in such an accessible pop culture? These kind of ideas are being pushed by misogynists and non misogynists alike so it's no surprise to see the casual listener buy into a musical piece if they don't really interact with that art past listening to the sounds. I like Eminem's first couple of albums but I'm not homophobic. I like the vast vast majority of Beck's work, but I'm no Scientologist. In the great scheme of things, you seem to be doing plenty to avoid taking the side of the victim here. And you might say you're playing devils advocate, but you seem to be simply speaking your mind. This is fine, but don't pretend as though you are speaking hypothetically to distance yourself from the kind of comments that those who want equality have to face every day.

 

Women's rights have come a long way, and the reason for this is because many people are shedding the enabling opinions you hold. There's still a long way to go, both in terms of equality AND respect, but like you said, big strides have been made.

 

Sexism in this country is 'nothing' in some respects, given the global predicament, but it is certainly not nothing in terms of a woman living her life expecting to be treated like a human being. People are living this life. They are not living a global life. We do not have some super power of immense empathy to every person on the planet, feeling everybody's pain. People live their own lives and in the moment, when an injustice happens, they don't automatically think 'it's fine, I could be living in a dictatorship, no point complaining'. You keep saying you're not saying they shouldn't complain, but then you're quick to ridicule the complaints or say, well you complain about this but what about this? Either they are justified to complain or they aren't.

 

If you want to discuss global feminism we can do. I know quite a bit about the struggles and highly recommend the book 'Half the Sky: Turning Oppression into Opportunity for Women Worldwide', but please don't use global feminism as a stick to beat western feminism with. They are both equal and are both striving towards the same aim. They are simply at different places.

What about Beyonce laying into men every five minutes?

 

I would kick Chris Brown in the nadgers if I met him - for his "music", for a start - but if women are really offended by misogynistic popstars like him, they shouldn't buy his records. He only churns them out because someone's buying them, and I've never seen a male Chris Brown fan.

 

That's just about the laziest and vaguest argument I've read in a while, not counting Pentagonal of course.

You didn't say it, but it was pretty much implicit. It is indeed like the reverse racism argument in that you get privileged people complaining about hypocrisies (some of which aren't supported by those after equality, some of which are simply invented or incomparable to real problems - in your case with Gray and Keyes/Loose Women you have achieved both. As i have stated with the Loose Women show, it's shit but it doesn't come from genuine hate and a belief that men are inferior.)

 

You also seem to be of the impression that people aren't doing anything to help those in other countries. Once again, just because something isn't being reported, doesn't mean it isn't happening. You also have to look at the fact that individual western women don't have the power to change feminism globally, topple dreadful regimes and free slaves worldwide, but they do have the power to change their own society. They also have a rightful expectation that they should keep pushing in order to achieve these aims. Does it not occur to you that this push is furthered by the more extreme feminists and that whilst not everyone agrees with them, they are integral to the cause? Without them, much less would be done and even if they fall short in some regards, their actions are necessary evil (they are of course not evil, this is simply a phrase) in the drive for equality? In all movements you need some bashing down the walls so the less extreme can see just exactly how far to go and how far is reasonable. There are extremes in all movements, but by condemning a few (and the panel of Loose Women was a strange target to pick) and thereby discrediting the movement as a whole, it just makes you look a bit silly.

 

But as I said, we are living in a culture where much of these misogynistic norms are tolerated, so why is it such a surprise to see young women buying into it when it is promoted in such an accessible pop culture? These kind of ideas are being pushed by misogynists and non misogynists alike so it's no surprise to see the casual listener buy into a musical piece if they don't really interact with that art past listening to the sounds. I like Eminem's first couple of albums but I'm not homophobic. I like the vast vast majority of Beck's work, but I'm no Scientologist. In the great scheme of things, you seem to be doing plenty to avoid taking the side of the victim here. And you might say you're playing devils advocate, but you seem to be simply speaking your mind. This is fine, but don't pretend as though you are speaking hypothetically to distance yourself from the kind of comments that those who want equality have to face every day.

 

Women's rights have come a long way, and the reason for this is because many people are shedding the enabling opinions you hold. There's still a long way to go, both in terms of equality AND respect, but like you said, big strides have been made.

 

Sexism in this country is 'nothing' in some respects, given the global predicament, but it is certainly not nothing in terms of a woman living her life expecting to be treated like a human being. People are living this life. They are not living a global life. We do not have some super power of immense empathy to every person on the planet, feeling everybody's pain. People live their own lives and in the moment, when an injustice happens, they don't automatically think 'it's fine, I could be living in a dictatorship, no point complaining'. You keep saying you're not saying they shouldn't complain, but then you're quick to ridicule the complaints or say, well you complain about this but what about this? Either they are justified to complain or they aren't.

 

If you want to discuss global feminism we can do. I know quite a bit about the struggles and highly recommend the book 'Half the Sky: Turning Oppression into Opportunity for Women Worldwide', but please don't use global feminism as a stick to beat western feminism with. They are both equal and are both striving towards the same aim. They are simply at different places.

 

I don't want to discuss global feminism at all. You're clinging to things I've said and trying to provoke an argument with me as if I'm some misogynistic Victorian who can't empathise with anyone who is lower in the class system. It's quite insulting to be honest, but I'll overlook it.

 

All I wanted to say was that I believe western women are very lucky, in that they can vote, they can aspire to any job they want, and they have strong female role models. I was also trying to say that any woman who feels oppressed in the UK should look elsewhere and realise that they are in fact very lucky.

 

I don't think that's an outrageous thing to say actually, Braddock. Maybe poorly put, but nothing wrong with it. No need to come down on me like a shit ton of bricks and pick holes in my "argument", as if I need schooling in how to respect people.

 

But as you've mentioned a couple of times that you're pretty sure I'm actually a sexist in disguise, I'll tell you that I was raised in a predominantly female house, and I've gone on to study a uni course that's 80% female, at least. Most of my friends are girls, and actually, some of them haven't been allowed to go out with white guys. In my family, the boys are favoured; at family meals, I always get talked to about uni, my music, football, etc, but they don't know anything about my sister. I used to get more money than her for Christmas, but I'd split it with her. I talk to my mum, and I used to talk to my nan, about football. She used to get up at 3 in the morning to listen to the boxing on the radio, and I used to talk to her about it the day after. She was a women, but I respected her opinion. And my dad does all the cooking in our house, these days.

 

I'm very, very lucky to be male, white, middle-class and British because of the way society is dictated; I'm a proud Socialist, just like my mother, and her mother before me. I am privileged, but I give to charity, I try to work for others, and I try to always think about people who are not as well off as me. But most of all, I've been brought up to respect everyone, whether they're black, white, poor, rich, disabled, male, female, old or young. That shouldn't need saying, because every one of my friends has that level of respect for people, as do you, as does anyone in this thread, and most people on this forum. But if does need saying, I'm not a sexist.

holy poop so much text o__o

holy poop so much text o__o

 

I'm guessing that's another way of saying "Too long; didn't read." :lol:

Well I earlier wrote about a lazy argument and I thought it could only be fair to read the whole thing, the first time I attempted to read I stopped reading after that absolutely pointless paragraph about Chris Brown thinking that I'm about to read some incredibly skewed logic, and on reading all of it that's exactly what I got. In fact Braddock had to explain the problem with the Chris Brown thing twice, and there's still no indication you understand. On another note, if you think someone assaulting a person who happens to be a woman is instantly a misogynist, you don't really get it, it's about attitudes, for example Browns more recent attitudes in response to the incident which are more fleeting, shows he's a misogynist because the woman's happy now and pleased with him, so what he did doesn't matter. When a minority is attacked in public it is not assumed it's racially motivated until investigated, if this Brown guy went nuts one night and lost his temper with her it doesn't necessarily mean he felt entitled to do so as a man etc. (And of course it doesn't mean he did feel like that).

 

I don't want to discuss global feminism at all.

 

But, why did you bring it up then? (Being, the issue of comparing global attitudes towards women) This is what I don't understand and I'd love to know. It's completely true to say that you implied women should have nothing to complain about because instead of getting stoned for being raped they just are unlikely to get promoted. If there's a racist incident or term used publicly, nobody goes "Yes it was bad abuse but hell- would've been worse 50 years ago. They can consider themselves very lucky". How bad would that sound?

 

You can say you're offended etc. but if you're really that good at seeing things from other perspectives, try and see it from ours- it looks completely like you're downplaying sexism in our society because other cultures are inherently worse, by your comparison. That's pretty easy to understand where we're coming from here, I know you said you're trying to see things from the other side of the coin and that's always important in any debate, but it didn't help that you seemed to see it only from one side, and even your points seemed biased towards it. If you were just trying to bring in another angle then you went way too far in doing so.

 

To sum up, it really does look like your attitude is "Well women, it could be worse so be grateful you're only vaguely judged as inferior by a male dominated society" and I haven't seen anything you wrote since to make me think otherwise. Again, I just fail to understand why you made that comparison in the first place, especially in this context, it sounds so wrong.

 

Also, I have to add, I kindof read the debate a bit backwards in that I saw you writing about how Baddocks trying to make you look like a secret misogynist etc. and then read from the start to find he really didn't do that at all he just stated what happened, and I think you're being overly defensive about it. In other words, don't start accusing me of trying to make you look like anything because I really don't care to, so I don't want to read more pointless context of your life if it's just going to de-rail the point I'm making.

I guess I could have replied in a bit of a kinder tone, I'm just a little suspicious of people who enter a thread which has been talking about real issues, whilst not demeaning men and not demeaning feminism in other cultures and then proceeds to set out to play a devils advocate by taking those two points as the main gist. If you've read through the entire thread and see that as the only thing to add then I find it a bit weird and would question your motives.

I could work as hard as men, but I know in the future that I will be paid less than them.

I have walked down the street and I felt uncomfortable because guys shouted at me about my physical appearance.... and when I ignored them, they shout at me aggressively.

I am scared to walk home by myself because I have had a drunk guy physically grab me (and I am thankful that my friend was there). As a girl I have been judged left right and centre about every aspect of my physically beauty, making me painfully self conscious.

 

But ya know, at least I won't get stoned to death.

 

 

 

I don't know if that was your argument, but fuck it sure did read like that.

I'm glad it wasn't just me.