I'm glad I'm not a girl

[Mark]

Well I earlier wrote about a lazy argument and I thought it could only be fair to read the whole thing, the first time I attempted to read I stopped reading after that absolutely pointless paragraph about Chris Brown thinking that I'm about to read some incredibly skewed logic, and on reading all of it that's exactly what I got. In fact Braddock had to explain the problem with the Chris Brown thing twice, and there's still no indication you understand. On another note, if you think someone assaulting a person who happens to be a woman is instantly a misogynist, you don't really get it, it's about attitudes, for example Browns more recent attitudes in response to the incident which are more fleeting, shows he's a misogynist because the woman's happy now and pleased with him, so what he did doesn't matter. When a minority is attacked in public it is not assumed it's racially motivated until investigated, if this Brown guy went nuts one night and lost his temper with her it doesn't necessarily mean he felt entitled to do so as a man etc. (And of course it doesn't mean he did feel like that).

 

But, why did you bring it up then? (Being, the issue of comparing global attitudes towards women) This is what I don't understand and I'd love to know. It's completely true to say that you implied women should have nothing to complain about because instead of getting stoned for being raped they just are unlikely to get promoted. If there's a racist incident or term used publicly, nobody goes "Yes it was bad abuse but hell- would've been worse 50 years ago. They can consider themselves very lucky". How bad would that sound?

 

You can say you're offended etc. but if you're really that good at seeing things from other perspectives, try and see it from ours- it looks completely like you're downplaying sexism in our society because other cultures are inherently worse, by your comparison. That's pretty easy to understand where we're coming from here, I know you said you're trying to see things from the other side of the coin and that's always important in any debate, but it didn't help that you seemed to see it only from one side, and even your points seemed biased towards it. If you were just trying to bring in another angle then you went way too far in doing so.

 

To sum up, it really does look like your attitude is "Well women, it could be worse so be grateful you're only vaguely judged as inferior by a male dominated society" and I haven't seen anything you wrote since to make me think otherwise. Again, I just fail to understand why you made that comparison in the first place, especially in this context, it sounds so wrong.

 

Also, I have to add, I kindof read the debate a bit backwards in that I saw you writing about how Baddocks trying to make you look like a secret misogynist etc. and then read from the start to find he really didn't do that at all he just stated what happened, and I think you're being overly defensive about it. In other words, don't start accusing me of trying to make you look like anything because I really don't care to, so I don't want to read more pointless context of your life if it's just going to de-rail the point I'm making.

 

I probably am being overdefensive; I'm coming off as something I'm not and I'm trying to put that right. I don't see that as a crime.

 

But I think part of the reason I'm being told that my views are misguided are because I'm male. I don't feel like I've been victimised, but it was very clearly stated earlier that being sexist was "an understandable position to take from someone in a privileged position". I asked my sister about it and she said that if most women took a less defeatist attitude that society was out to get them, they'd achieve more. (I'm not prepared to argue this, I'm just stating this as a girl's opinion)

 

So I'm not going to reply in this thread anymore. I thought what I was trying to say was clear: Western women are extremely lucky. Something that Braddock himself agreed with when he said "Sexism in this country is 'nothing' in some respects, given the global predicament".

 

Sorry for all the offence caused, and I'll come back if I've got a balanced argument.

[Prince Myshkin]

Fair enough for you for replying in that manner. I think it's worth pointing out that the two people you've spoken to in this thread so far (who have responded to you directly) have been male, so I'm not sure it's a case of just attacking guys. But I'd agree with your statement that you're being told that your views are misguided because you are a male. Not because you can never understand, that you don't understand to any extent, or out of hatred for males (as I said, me and Reilly are male), but because what you are saying appears to be the product of taking things on board almost completely from a male perspective. And it's taking this stance from the start when so many other things are being discussed in the thread which is a little strange to understand.

[Mark]

Fair enough for you for replying in that manner. I think it's worth pointing out that the two people you've spoken to in this thread so far (who have responded to you directly) have been male, so I'm not sure it's a case of just attacking guys. But I'd agree with your statement that you're being told that your views are misguided because you are a male. Not because you can never understand, that you don't understand to any extent, or out of hatred for males (as I said, me and Reilly are male), but because what you are saying appears to be the product of taking things on board almost completely from a male perspective. And it's taking this stance from the start when so many other things are being discussed in the thread which is a little strange to understand.

 

I didn't look at both sides, because both you and others made the case for oppressed women in the west, and all I wanted to say was, well is it that bad compared to elsewhere? Of course I realise that some women still feel inferior in our society, but given how most of the thread had covered that, I didn't feel the need to go over it again.

 

As I mentioned though, my views on this have been formed not by a male perspective at all, but the women I know who have the attitude "things only get done if you work towards it, not if you moan about it". Not that people here are moaning or not working; I'm sorry if I came off a bit strongly, I should've put things a bit more gently.

 

And I'm sorry for getting heated Braddock, but I just don't want anyone thinking that I actually do take that one side.

 

Last post, promise.

[Prince Myshkin]

How else do you get things done than without a little 'moaning'? You've got to raise awareness and by talking about the problems it becomes easier to get things done without coming up against as much pressure. Also, this is an internet forum, a place for people to vent. This isn't a place where feminism is being defined and it isn't going to be printed off and given to all men.

 

Please can we get one more reply (you don't have to post immediately) and let us know how the girls in this thread should behave. What would be 'doing something about it' and how could they avoid 'moaning'?

[Mark]

How else do you get things done than without a little 'moaning'? You've got to raise awareness and by talking about the problems it becomes easier to get things done without coming up against as much pressure. Also, this is an internet forum, a place for people to vent. This isn't a place where feminism is being defined and it isn't going to be printed off and given to all men.

 

Please can we get one more reply (you don't have to post immediately) and let us know how the girls in this thread should behave. What would be 'doing something about it' and how could they avoid 'moaning'?

 

I'm not going to dictate how people should behave, and as I've said, I don't disagree with any girl in this thread, or their attitude.

 

I also don't disagree with this discussion, and I believe that anything can be solved if you talk it through.

 

But if you want something, you have to go get it. My sister for example isn't bothered by the fact that most of her family doesn't know she exists. She works twice as hard as me in all honesty, and she's probably off to Cardiff uni to do English this September. She wants to be a radio journalist. And she's going to achieve that by working hard, not by sitting around saying that life's unfair.

 

That's probably the same for most girls in this thread, and most girls in our country. It's the attitude I've been brought up to have too; I've also been told I have to look a certain way and that I can't do certain things because of who I am.

 

I hope that clears up my attitude towards things and clearly states that I have respect for you, the others in this thread, this thread in general, and women in general. I'm trying to not to offend anyone whilst trying to answer what I find to be a difficult question.

[Safy]

All I wanted to say was that I believe western women are very lucky, in that they can vote, they can aspire to any job they want, and they have strong female role models. I was also trying to say that any woman who feels oppressed in the UK should look elsewhere and realise that they are in fact very lucky.

 

 

I wasn't going to reply in this thread again because I thought it reached a dead end, but this particular phrase made me quite annoyed.

 

Reilly has said a lot of things I wanted to say (thanks to him) & in a much better way than I would.

 

I just wanted to add that the arguement about "you're lucky because of what you have so don't complain" is also used in the so called 3rd world countries I live in , these are the same countries that you refer to as worse places for women to live. So yes here, when a woman complains of injustice, she is faced with the words: "what else do you want more than what you already have? Be thankful that you can work/get to learn/ not beaten up/ not buried alive as a baby like the habit in the dark ages"

 

Practising human rights such as the right to vote, work as you mentioned shouldn't be considered as a consequence of good luck. As if it is the norm to be treated aggressively & with discrimination. This is the problem worldwide, the rights women get to practise at certain parts of it get to be considered gifts that they should be grateful for, & should be put under the test at all times. If one sees a woman driving badly, it's because she is a woman driver. If you should go to a physician, it has to be a male one because female physicians are less competent. If a woman is a bad cook, then that's the consequences of leaving your natural habitat (home) to go out & try to work a man's work.

 

So yes, maybe the discrimination against women in the 1st world countries is less than other parts in the world, but that's because bad is better than worse, worse is better than worst. Still far from good, far from right, & people should only aspire for a better world/ future not settle for their little accomplishments thinking that they are lucky.

 

Hope I made myself clear.

[Cyan Kat]

I'm not going to dictate how people should behave, and as I've said, I don't disagree with any girl in this thread, or their attitude.

 

I also don't disagree with this discussion, and I believe that anything can be solved if you talk it through.

 

But if you want something, you have to go get it. My sister for example isn't bothered by the fact that most of her family doesn't know she exists. She works twice as hard as me in all honesty, and she's probably off to Cardiff uni to do English this September. She wants to be a radio journalist. And she's going to achieve that by working hard, not by sitting around saying that life's unfair.

 

That's probably the same for most girls in this thread, and most girls in our country. It's the attitude I've been brought up to have too; I've also been told I have to look a certain way and that I can't do certain things because of who I am.

 

I hope that clears up my attitude towards things and clearly states that I have respect for you, the others in this thread, this thread in general, and women in general. I'm trying to not to offend anyone whilst trying to answer what I find to be a difficult question.

 

I agree working hard is important, but the issue is after all the hard work. The fact that there is such a small percentage of women in high positions in pretty much every industry there is, it's not because they don't work as hard as men or they are defeatist and constantly moaning it's the way society views women as a whole and gender roles especially ideas about having a family and the woman automatically staying home.

 

I am working hard at the moment to try get into university to study Biology and I am very aware that a lot of the leading scientists in the world are male, I'm not moaning it just doesn't add up seen as around 50% of biolody students are female then why aren't 50% of those higher up also female?

[iccp]

i think it should be more of an issue of competing -- let the best get the position at work/school/whatever. it should be based on merit

[Reilly]

I believe that anything can be solved if you talk it through.

 

I would like to believe that, but discussions like this make me realise sometimes its impossible, and in trying to validate your point for me you're actually digging a deeper hole and sounding even more ignorant.

 

I didn't look at both sides, because both you and others made the case for oppressed women in the west, and all I wanted to say was, well is it that bad compared to elsewhere? Of course I realise that some women still feel inferior in our society, but given how most of the thread had covered that, I didn't feel the need to go over it again.

 

I did bring this up as a possibility in my post, that you're simply looking to create an actual discussion as opposed to everyone just agreeing with eachother. However as I also said, you went way too far in doing so.

 

My sister for example isn't bothered by the fact that most of her family doesn't know she exists. She works twice as hard as me in all honesty' date=' and she's probably off to Cardiff uni to do English this September. She wants to be a radio journalist. And she's going to achieve that by working hard, not by sitting around saying that life's unfair.[/quote']

 

So what, women either work really hard 100% of the time OR spend 100% of their time moaning? What kind of attitude is that, not even just ignorant in a sexist sense, but one dimensional in a general sense. Women can work hard and still feel oppressed in ways, it's not as black or white as that. I think if you or your sister think like this you should probably break it down as to how exactly wanting to feel equal is a complete deterrent to working hard and being successful. If she does work really hard to get into radio journalism, and ends up working with a bunch of sexist assholes who make her the butt of their jokes and make her biggest work priority tea and biscuits, is she still going to think "Well no point in whining about it, despite having a better degree etc. I'll keep trying to work hard and my day will come :nice:" because I guarantee you her attitude would be much different.

 

If I seem a bit annoyed it's because I kindof am, when I say you sound even more ignorant and digging a deeper hole I think the phrase "not sitting around saying life's unfair" sums up why I feel like that, its saying to me that you haven't learned a thing from this exchange.

 

I thought what I was trying to say was clear: Western women are extremely lucky. Something that Braddock himself agreed with when he said "Sexism in this country is 'nothing' in some respects' date=' given the global predicament". [/quote']

 

Oh please. Well if that's all you're saying, you'd have to wonder why it's annoyed everyone?

 

I think everyone can safely say that on the face of it, human rights for women are incomparably bad in Saudi Arabia than the West, but when you write in the context, for example, that it pisses you off that Beyonce doesn't realise how lucky she is, you are completely implying that because rights are worse elsewhere women should accept feeling inferior, they should accept unwanted public attention, as it could be a lot worse. Hell you even just said that your sister is fine with feeling insignificant as a female, well that's her own choice but you are putting it across that just because it's a females opinion this is acceptable? You should be telling her its not ok, or you could have at least, when posting about it, made it clear that you disagree with it being fine, but you didn't, so... you do think it's ok then? Because it sounds like you think your sister warrants it acceptable for women to submit to feeling less of a human being than a man. Personal first-hand experience is important in forming opinions, but you're acting as if your sister or other women you know somehow represent society, and to be completely honest it's as if you're using such opinions to slot in with your own points made in this topic.

 

I think this following distinction is important- I'm not saying you feel women are inferior, and I haven't seen anyone imply that, but your attitude seems to be saying you feel it's inevitable and helpless that women will be made to feel this way, so while you don't necessarily agree with it, that's the reality and they should just get on with it. Do you understand the difference?

 

Finally I had a thought similar to this which is explained better:

 

I just wanted to add that the arguement about "you're lucky because of what you have so don't complain" is also used in the so called 3rd world countries I live in ' date=' these are the same countries that you refer to as worse places for women to live. So yes here, when a woman complains of injustice, she is faced with the words: "what else do you want more than what you already have? Be thankful that you can work/get to learn/ not beaten up/ not buried alive as a baby like the habit in the dark ages" [/quote']

 

And:

 

So yes, maybe the discrimination against women in the 1st world countries is less than other parts in the world, but that's because bad is better than worse, worse is better than worst. Still far from good, far from right, & people should only aspire for a better world/ future not settle for their little accomplishments thinking that they are lucky.

 

Yes excellently put. A century ago in Britain certain people would've been saying "Well now women are allowed to vote, what more can you want?" despite that only being the start of it.

 

I realise I'm coming off a lot more strongly then Braddock did but I don't know how else to get through here, as I've pointed out mrkjhnwht your last posts shows me you still haven't learned anything, and when you write about how you could have put things "more gently" it just sounds like you've tried hard to hold back from saying "You're all lucky stop moaning about some guy at a bus stop! He didn't throw a stone at you so stop whining and get on with your careers..." I'm 90% sure that's not even harsh to say, that's exactly how you've come across and I'd be surprised if a large part of you didn't feel like that.

 

All I can leave you with, is that you don't have to tell your sister how to feel, but her point isn't validated just because she's a female and you don't have to use it as a reason to justify her getting treated with less respect than you (And that's what you're doing, otherwise I don't know why you'd bring it up in this discussion) and you in your own mind, regardless of however you feel you've been made to look in this ultimately irrelevant thread, you should stop encouraging passive behaviour when it comes to rights.

[Destrokk]

bumping this thread because i saw a video of this girl and i sooooooo relate to her way of thinking and its like ahhh ok but this is her response video which is more clear

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOWzNERHr0w]Re: Ugly, Beauty, etc. - YouTube[/ame]

 

she has a whole playlist of women on youtube and they all talk about such great things wow this is a female fiesta but this one is also a good one because when she said "noooooo" i did it too at the same time it was funny ok

 

http://youtu.be/nQCXHVrqtKI

[Destrokk]

yes bb

 

 

I spent all friday watching and just going YESSSS while i cleaned my room.

[Wyrd]

Re: Ugly, Beauty, etc. - YouTube[/url]

Urgh, I don't like it when these people on youtube first talk more than a minute about themselves before they actually get to the point.

"I didn't take a shower, because the water was cold and uhm yeah. so I made a video because I had thoughts in my brain" I DON'T CARE

I watched more than two minutes and she is still rambling about herself and how her video got viral. Sorry, but that's where I stop watching.

[Destrokk]

i dont care

[Wyrd]

Well, last night my bf was showing me vids and the people in there were doing the same thing as her. First talk about yourself for I don't know how long and then the second half of it is actually what it is about. In those cases I really like a 'skip to 2.15 min for the nice stuff', because I don't know when it starts. I guess this was just the last straw and I am done with these vlogs (except for getting to know coldplayers interviews :D)

[Prince Myshkin]

But acknowledging her appearance was pretty much the point of the entire thing anyway.

[Wyrd]

then I guess I don't understand?

[Destrokk]

exactly dawg

[Tnspieler1012]

but this is her response video which is more clear

 

 

Watched just now because y'all was goin on bout it, and yeah, for a video described as 'clear', it takes 3 minutes for her to say anything related to the title. I get wyrd's frustration. Not subtracting from what she eventually says...but yeah.

[Reilly]

I don't think what she said was overly interesting or unique anyway, parts of her logic was a bit muddled.

[Prince Myshkin]

It was just a general point on beauty and an explanation of her situation and the reason why she's making the video.

[Destrokk]

sorry you poopheads

[Reilly]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=R7Q1sC-LNDc

 

"All they see, is you" because when you age you're no longer you anymore.

 

Just for a start with whats wrong with that ad. Also, that woman looks fucking 23, 15 years of marriage?

 

EDIT: Actually I checked the comments and apparently shes 24, a model called Tabitha Hall.

[Destrokk]

yeah i dont get with the obssession that a middle aged woman has to look forever young, i mean i guess it's sort of a mid life crisis but i know that if im getting older theres not much i can do to stop it other than eating healthy and exercising

[Prince Myshkin]

The advertising business should basically die.

[Batman]

I was outside today (I know, shocking) and then I was surrounded by overly styled girls on the bus. I was just wearing my usual comfortable, colourful clothes and the girls were all glamorous and had tons of make-up on and styled hair and bling and stuff and just kept staring at me like I was some kind of alien :|

 

I really should by a shirt with something like " THE FUCK ARE YOU LOOKING AT" on it :wacky: