These are the problems in my mind when it comes to electric cars:

1 - In 10 or so years time, will the likes of Nissan still be making battery packs to fit in your car?

2 - Will they still be making the motors etc, or will be it a case like with most electric products of throwing away when broken as it costs too much to repair/impossible to repair?

These are the problems in my mind when it comes to electric cars:

1 - In 10 or so years time, will the likes of Nissan still be making battery packs to fit in your car?

>Good question. I would think a company that wants to uphold a good reputation will still be making battery packs to fit the Leaf, and perhaps the replacement packs will be much better as the technology improves.

2 - Will they still be making the motors etc, or will be it a case like with most electric products of throwing away when broken as it costs too much to repair/impossible to repair?

> Well, I think they would still be making the motors as well - cars being high ticket items, and there's good money to be made in parts. The world of cheap throw-away electronics with recyclable batteries is more a common practice when the item is not a major investment - since it's less of an investment, people opt to replace it more frequently, expect less of it, and upgrading the item would be something only a limited few would bother with.

Cars are a pretty expensive proposition, they are sold and resold several times, and last 12.5 years on average, more for newer and newer models. Studies show now that people are keeping their cars longer than ever too.

So if that's the case, I would expect the battery packs to be there in 10 years, and the motor replacements too.

> Challenges abound with battery advances. The more power we pack in each unit volume, the shorter the lifespan of the battery, and the greater the risk of energy release. But the future looks bright :cool: as research into solving these problems keeps rolling along. Perhaps it's good to keep an eye on other means as well - adsorbers for hydrogen keep advancing, and carbon nanotube ultracapacitors are vying as battery contenders.

(and now for a shameless plug :)) If you want to enjoy a leisurely experience in Renewable Energy, you could come visit or volunteer at our very own, one-and-only Midwest Renewable Energy Fair, happening this Friday, Saturday, and Sunday in Custer, Wisconsin! There will be a Clean Energy Car Show, including demos on vehicle conversions, and you can see the solar carport & EV charging station in action!:sunny:

Link link link link link link : The Midwest Renewable Energy Association

> Challenges abound with battery advances. The more power we pack in each unit volume, the shorter the lifespan of the battery, and the greater the risk of energy release. But the future looks bright :cool: as research into solving these problems keeps rolling along. Perhaps it's good to keep an eye on other means as well - adsorbers for hydrogen keep advancing, and carbon nanotube ultracapacitors are vying as battery contenders.

(and now for a shameless plug :)) If you want to enjoy a leisurely experience in Renewable Energy, you could come visit or volunteer at our very own, one-and-only Midwest Renewable Energy Fair, happening this Friday, Saturday, and Sunday in Custer, Wisconsin! There will be a Clean Energy Car Show, including demos on vehicle conversions, and you can see the solar carport & EV charging station in action!:sunny:

Link link link link link link : The Midwest Renewable Energy Association

 

 

I guess that you are visiting the Clean Energy Car Show - or will you be volunteering?

I guess that you are visiting the Clean Energy Car Show - or will you be volunteering?

I haven't decided yet - I usually volunteer, but this year I might actually just go and enjoy the show! Got one in Denmark?

^I didn't know so I had to google this: (I am translating it)

 

 

Time | 21-2 October and 28-30 October 2011

 

MCH Messecenter Herning, Vardevej 1, 7400 Herning

 

www | http://www.bilerforalle.dk (Cars for everyone)

 

In October Scandinavia's largest car exhibition/show returns to MCH Messecenter Herning over two weekends. The exhibition / shows will be revived with a new concept. Among the new measures / initiatives at the exhibition / show will be two themes halls. One theme will revolve around the family car, where the second theme will focus on environmental cars. Car makes will select and exhibit cars fitting the der passer til temaerne – og samtidig vil det ske i omgivelser, som ikke er set tidligere på en dansk biludstilling. Blandt andet kan de miljøvenlige biler opleves i en regnskov.

De besøgende kan også opleve en helt ny aktivitet på biludstillingen – nemlig en carwalk, hvor topmodeller og tøjmode er skiftet ud med nye, funklende biler. De forskellige bilmodeller præsenteres på carwalken med publikum stående tæt omkring, og samtidig bliver der fortalt om bilens køreegenskaber.

^I didn't know so I had to google this: (I am translating it)

 

 

Time | 21-2 October and 28-30 October 2011

 

MCH Messecenter Herning, Vardevej 1, 7400 Herning

 

www | http://www.bilerforalle.dk (Cars for everyone)

 

In October Scandinavia's largest car exhibition/show returns to MCH Messecenter Herning over two weekends. The exhibition / shows will be revived with a new concept. Among the new measures / initiatives at the exhibition / show will be two themes halls. One theme will revolve around the family car, where the second theme will focus on environmental cars. Car makes will select and exhibit cars fitting the der passer til temaerne – og samtidig vil det ske i omgivelser, som ikke er set tidligere på en dansk biludstilling. Blandt andet kan de miljøvenlige biler opleves i en regnskov.

De besøgende kan også opleve en helt ny aktivitet på biludstillingen – nemlig en carwalk, hvor topmodeller og tøjmode er skiftet ud med nye, funklende biler. De forskellige bilmodeller præsenteres på carwalken med publikum stående tæt omkring, og samtidig bliver der fortalt om bilens køreegenskaber.

^I didn't know so I had to google this:

 

 

Time | 21-23 October and 28-30 October 2011

 

MCH Messecenter Herning, Vardevej 1, 7400 Herning

 

www | http://www.bilerforalle.dk (Cars for everyone)

 

In October Scandinavia's largest car exhibition returns to MCH Messecenter Herning and will take place over two weekends. The exhibition will be revived with a new concept. Among the new measures / initiatives at the exhibition will be two theme halls. One theme will revolve around the family car, whereas the second theme will focus on environmental / green cars. Car makes will select and exhibit cars fitting the themes – and at the same time it will happen in surroundings not seen before at a Danish car exhibition. Among other things, the green (environmentally friendly) cars can be experienced in a rain forest.

 

The visitors can also experience a quite new activity at the car exhibition – a carwalk where super models and fashion have been replaced by new, sparkling cars. The different car models will be introduced at the carwalk with the audience standing closely around the carwalk, and at the same time the audience will be informed of the driving properties of the car.

 

http://www.mch.dk/MCH/Messer-og-Udstillinger/Alle-arrangementer.aspx?Action=1&NewsId=1232&PID=622

Thanks for the info on the show! X3 :laugh3:

sounds great - wish they had the eco-friendly family cars there too, but it still will be neat with the green cars in the "rainforest" - great way to bring things together!!

The Midwest Renewable Energy Fair is great too because it's all-encompassing - it's educational and fun and hands-on! If you like playing with mud and straw, or listening to great keynote speakers, or learn how to live with an electric vehicle, it's all under one tent! (so to speak). :--)

Fun bands too in the evening :guitarist::sunny:

The Midwest Renewable Energy Association

And even though it's in the Midwest, we have guests from all over the globe arrive and enjoy the festivities! So bring an umbrella and some shades, a lawn chair, and come on down! (plus it's great fun for kids too - kids of all ages, that is.. ;--)

^As you know - a good thing cannot be repeated enough ! :laugh3:

^As you know - a good thing cannot be repeated enough ! :laugh3:

How True!;)

:sunny: Energy Fair Energy Fair Energy Fair :sunny:

The Midwest Renewable Energy Association

HomePower.gif (GIF Image, 145x153 pixels)

^ Doesn't the rainbow circle image on Chris Martin's outfit look a bit like this?

How True!;)

:sunny: Energy Fair Energy Fair Energy Fair :sunny:

The Midwest Renewable Energy Association

HomePower.gif (GIF Image, 145x153 pixels)

^ Doesn't the rainbow circle image on Chris Martin's outfit look a bit like this?

 

 

Yes, indeed. :)

Come visit, and learn how to run your car on used french fry oil. The emissions smell like fried donuts! :p:wacko:

three days of fun in the sun!! :sunny:

The Midwest Renewable Energy Association

 

...and you get to play with mud!

What sorts of similar events exist in all the four corners on earth?

I found the new Prius to be an interesting & sophisticated machine - quite the interconnected systems! Lithium Ion batteries under the hatchback area, nickel metal hydride in the front for the engine hybrid system, and yet another battery for the lights and accessories.

A few things could use improvement, such as utilizing space beneath the vehicle for expanded lithium battery packs, and cutting the vehicle weight in half with composite bodies. Both of these require cost reductions in materials, and improvements in storage capacity for lithium-based batteries, but this seems like something which we have the wherewithal to overcome, especially when one considers the true costs of energy, and the risks we run by not focusing on efficiency and solar. Getting the weight down and improving aerodynamics could improve the mileage per charge to double the current level (on batteries, the operator said you can go around 13 miles (21 km) per charge highway, 26 miles (42 km) per charge city). Doubling that would make it much more attractive to commuters here in the U.S., where the average commute is 15 minutes one-way.

Price-wise electricity costs about 1/4th as much as gasoline in the U.S. (and gas is set to rise substantially higher), and opting for a solar-roofed car port with wind turbine could make buying electricity from the grid a non-issue for many.

So for the short hops, one might spend $1.00 vs. $4.00 per "fill-up", which adds up pretty quickly X 300 busy days a year!

All in all though, I liked the car, it's smart in being able to use liquid fuels for long-distance drives, while the common commutes can be made eco-friendly. More batteries, lighter body, and using biofuels might make it a great model for the future of autos.

Come visit, and learn how to run your car on used french fry oil. The emissions smell like fried donuts! :p:wacko:

 

Doesn't that only work with really old diesel engines?.

Doesn't that only work with really old diesel engines?.

> It works with newer ones too, to my knowledge. But yes, Diesels - they can be run on either vegetable oil, or biodiesel - with the veggie oil, in cold climates, one has to run a line of heated cooling system fluid around the veggie oil line, filter, & tank to keep the liquid from gelling. That, and filter it real well beforehand, lest the fuel filter gets clogged, But basically, it works! That, or go with biodiesel, which takes some processing, but yields a much less viscous fluid with a much lower 'freezing' or gelling point.

For gasoline engines, the main biofuel option available is ethanol, which currently has numerous drawbacks in terms of energy inputs and crop issues, although that may be changing with newer technologies to make it.

But the best thing is to go high-efficiency first, which is worth at least 1,000 liter tankful a year in savings per car.

> It works with newer ones too, to my knowledge. But yes, Diesels - they can be run on either vegetable oil, or biodiesel - with the veggie oil, in cold climates, one has to run a line of heated cooling system fluid around the veggie oil line, filter, & tank to keep the liquid from gelling. That, and filter it real well beforehand, lest the fuel filter gets clogged, But basically, it works! That, or go with biodiesel, which takes some processing, but yields a much less viscous fluid with a much lower 'freezing' or gelling point.

For gasoline engines, the main biofuel option available is ethanol, which currently has numerous drawbacks in terms of energy inputs and crop issues, although that may be changing with newer technologies to make it.

But the best thing is to go high-efficiency first, which is worth at least 1,000 liter tankful a year in savings per car.

 

A friend of mine runs his car on it and I didn't believe you could do it until he showed me by running it out almost and filling up with it, it works out at quite a saving for him I think, I couldn't do it though, it looks too long winded and messy and the other drawback is I have a gasoline powered car, to tell the truth I don't like diesels that much.

A friend of mine runs his car on it and I didn't believe you could do it until he showed me by running it out almost and filling up with it, it works out at quite a saving for him I think, I couldn't do it though, it looks too long winded and messy and the other drawback is I have a gasoline powered car, to tell the truth I don't like diesels that much.

;):laugh3: Hm, wonder why the aversion to Diesels? Is it because the exhaust is smelly, or is it because the engines make knocking noises? There's room for improvement in those areas, I agree - but used in a hybrid, they have greater efficiency than a gasoline engine, and the noise issues can be reduced, the exhaust cleaned up.

Perhaps then, as fuel gets expensive, you would be more willing to switch to alcohol fuel, if the car were designed to handle it, and it were made efficiently from biomass?

 

Or how about an all-electric, if it had a great range?

;):laugh3: Hm, wonder why the aversion to Diesels? Is it because the exhaust is smelly, or is it because the engines make knocking noises? There's room for improvement in those areas, I agree - but used in a hybrid, they have greater efficiency than a gasoline engine, and the noise issues can be reduced, the exhaust cleaned up.

Perhaps then, as fuel gets expensive, you would be more willing to switch to alcohol fuel, if the car were designed to handle it, and it were made efficiently from biomass?

 

Or how about an all-electric, if it had a great range?

 

I don't mind the newer sort of diesels that much but they still sound a bit clattery and arn't as smooth to drive, not as fast and my main gripe with them is, you always seem to get diesel on your hands when you refill them which isn't too pleasant!.

I would definatly consider an electric/hydrogen car once they become more mainstream, I don't particularly hate diesels but having owned one in the past and for the amount of miles I cover per year(about 4000 max) I prefer the smoother and faster gasoline engine,diesel is more expensive here anyway so the saving I would have by using a diesel wouldn't really work out.

I don't mind the newer sort of diesels that much but they still sound a bit clattery and arn't as smooth to drive, not as fast and my main gripe with them is, you always seem to get diesel on your hands when you refill them which isn't too pleasant!.

I would definatly consider an electric/hydrogen car once they become more mainstream, I don't particularly hate diesels but having owned one in the past and for the amount of miles I cover per year(about 4000 max) I prefer the smoother and faster gasoline engine,diesel is more expensive here anyway so the saving I would have by using a diesel wouldn't really work out.

> Yes, I agree - there is that clattery sound, which in this day and age auto companies should be able to silence - it comes from the injection and burning fuel in the combustion chambers. One might imagine sound-proofing insulation or some type of noise dampering system would be effective in almost eliminating the noise. Clangitty, clappity, clapp clappity clap.. ! Quaint in an antique Diesel, but today the engines should be quiet, or at a minimum, the engine compartment should silence any engine noise.

> And that too - the lack of smoothness is an issue. But since the Diesel is a superior engine for efficiency, one might imagine a good application for one in the hybrid design, where electric drive takes away the engine's jittery feel as one accelerates. But who knows - perhaps the answer is in another engine design..

> I understand - smoothness of operation is a desirable thing without a doubt . Perhaps the hydrogen - electric car of your dreams is not too far off in the future - quite a few advances on the hydrogen storage front, and given sufficient wind resources, one can imagine hydrogen being a contender in more places than just Iceland!;) (BTW congratulations on driving so few miles in a year!)

 

 

 

> Yes, I agree - there is that clattery sound, which in this day and age auto companies should be able to silence - it comes from the injection and burning fuel in the combustion chambers. One might imagine sound-proofing insulation or some type of noise dampering system would be effective in almost eliminating the noise. Clangitty, clappity, clapp clappity clap.. ! Quaint in an antique Diesel, but today the engines should be quiet, or at a minimum, the engine compartment should silence any engine noise.

> And that too - the lack of smoothness is an issue. But since the Diesel is a superior engine for efficiency, one might imagine a good application for one in the hybrid design, where electric drive takes away the engine's jittery feel as one accelerates. But who knows - perhaps the answer is in another engine design..

> I understand - smoothness of operation is a desirable thing without a doubt . Perhaps the hydrogen - electric car of your dreams is not too far off in the future - quite a few advances on the hydrogen storage front, and given sufficient wind resources, one can imagine hydrogen being a contender in more places than just Iceland!;) (BTW congratulations on driving so few miles in a year!)

 

 

 

 

I'm all for buying a hydrogen or electric powered car when they offer the same tank/charge range and performance as a gasoline or diesel car, I'm not against the change at all but at the moment the infrastructure just isn't there which is something that needs to change,until that time I do so few miles that I don't feel guilty about driving a gasoline V8.

From today's free paper "24 timer" (Danish for "24 hours" - this paper is published by Metroxpress Denmark):

 

GREEN EUROPEAN PREMIERE IN COPENHAGEN

 

PROGRESS. Europe's first battery change at an electric car occurred yesterday as the company Better Place opened / inaugurated its first battery change station situated in Gladsaxe (municipality near the Danish capital Copenhagen) according to the news agency Ritzau. The Danish climate and energy minister Lykke Friis from V (for Venstre, the Danish liberal party) was sitting in the car - a Renault Fluence Z.E., while the battery was changed in less than 5 minutes. It is the very first of 20 stations that Better Place will build in Denmark until spring next year. Today, modern electric cars have a range less than 200 kilometres, and a full charge takes 6-8 hours. The battery change station manages this limitation, because you change the battery and drive on.

That new Ford Fiesta is wonderful, 30 MPG city 40 highway, and I've heard people that've gotten 37 city and 44 highway. :nice: What a car.

From today's free paper "24 timer" (Danish for "24 hours" - this paper is published by Metroxpress Denmark):

 

GREEN EUROPEAN PREMIERE IN COPENHAGEN

 

PROGRESS. Europe's first battery change at an electric car occurred yesterday as the company Better Place opened / inaugurated its first battery change station situated in Gladsaxe (municipality near the Danish capital Copenhagen) according to the news agency Ritzau. The Danish climate and energy minister Lykke Friis from V (for Venstre, the Danish liberal party) was sitting in the car - a Renault Fluence Z.E., while the battery was changed in less than 5 minutes. It is the very first of 20 stations that Better Place will build in Denmark until spring next year. Today, modern electric cars have a range less than 200 kilometres, and a full charge takes 6-8 hours. The battery change station manages this limitation, because you change the battery and drive on.

You're off and running with the battery change stations then! Its been a long-talked about idea here, perhaps there are some in sunny California, but it sounds like you Danes will make it really happen! There's one good answer to the range problem - and as long as the battery change is relatively simple, then it will be a "go". :)

I had temporarily forgotten about this idea, I suppose because I assumed it was too difficult for car operators to deal with - glad to see someone made it simple and easy!! That's the key to jumpstarting the wide adoption of electrics - making it possible to go long distances, freeing them from the tether of home base.

Thanks for the news Nancy!;)