http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13268517

 

Pakistan admits Bin Laden failure

 

Pakistan's main intelligence agency, the ISI, has said it is embarrassed by its failures on al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden.

 

An ISI official told the BBC the compound in Abbottabad where Bin Laden was killed by US forces on Sunday had been raided in 2003.

 

But the compound "was not on our radar" since then, the official said.

 

President Asif Ali Zardari denied the killing suggested Pakistan was failing in its efforts to tackle terrorism.

 

Bin Laden, 54, was the founder and leader of al-Qaeda. He is believed to have ordered the attacks on New York and Washington on 11 September 2001, as well as a number of other deadly bombings.

 

The ISI official told the BBC's Owen Bennett-Jones in Islamabad that the compound in Abbottabad, just 100km (62 miles) from the capital, was raided when under construction in 2003.

 

It was believed an al-Qaeda operative, Abu Faraj al-Libi, was there.

 

But since then "the compound was not on our radar, it is an embarrassment for the ISI", the official said. "We're good, but we're not God."

 

The compound is just a few hundred metres from the Pakistan Military Academy - the country's equivalent of West Point or Sandhurst.

 

The ISI official also gave new or differing accounts of some of the events of Sunday's raid. They included:

• There were 17-18 people in the compound at the time of the attack
  
• The Americans took away one person still alive, possibly a Bin Laden son
  
• Those who survived the attack included a wife, a daughter and eight to nine other children, not apparently Bin Laden's; all had their hands tied by the Americans
  
• The surviving Yemeni wife said they had moved to the compound a few months ago
  
• Bin Laden's daughter, aged 12 or 13, saw her father shot
  

 

The official said it was thought the Americans wanted to take away the surviving women and children but had to abandon the plan when one of the helicopters malfunctioned.

 

The helicopter was destroyed by the special forces unit.

 

The US has not commented on anyone it captured or had planned to capture, other than saying it had taken Bin Laden's body.

 

The ISI official said the organisation had recovered some documents from the compound.

 

The CIA is already said to be going through a large number of hard drives and storage devices seized in the raid.

 

White House counter-terrorism adviser John Brennan said there had been concern Pakistani forces would deploy to counter the US Navy Seal team conducting the raid but it had avoided any confrontation.

 

The ISI official said: "We were totally caught by surprise. They were in and out before we could react."

 

Our correspondent says residents near the compound in Abbottabad reported that Pakistani soldiers had asked them to switch off their lights an hour before the attack, but the ISI official said this was not true and that it had no advanced knowledge of the raid.

 

Earlier, in an opinion piece in the Washington Post, Mr Zardari admitted Bin Laden "was not anywhere we had anticipated he would be".

 

But he said Pakistan had "never been and never will be the hotbed of fanaticism that is often described by the media".

 

"Such baseless speculation may make exciting cable news, but it doesn't reflect fact," he said.

 

"Pakistan had as much reason to despise al-Qaeda as any nation. The war on terrorism is as much Pakistan's war as it is America's."

 

Mr Brennan had said it was "inconceivable that Bin Laden did not have a support system" in Pakistan.

 

Pakistani Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir tried to draw a line under the matter, saying: "Who did what is beside the point... This issue of Osama Bin Laden is history."

 

Bin Laden was America's most wanted man but had eluded capture for more than a decade.

 

US officials say that after DNA tests they are "99.9%" sure that the man they shot and killed and later buried at sea was Bin Laden.

 

US President Barack Obama watched the entire operation in real time in the White House with his national security team.

 

Mr Brennan said: "The minutes passed like days."

 

CIA director Leon Panetta narrated via a video screen from a separate Washington office, with Bin Laden given the code name Geronimo.

 

Mr Panetta's narration lasted several minutes. "They've reached the target... We have a visual on Geronimo... Geronimo EKIA (enemy killed in action)."

 

Mr Obama said: "We got him."

 

Bin Laden, his son Khalid, trusted personal courier Sheikh Abu Ahmed and the courier's brother were all killed, along with an unidentified woman.

 

Bin Laden was shot above his left eye, blowing away a section of his skull, and was also shot in the chest.

 

The BBC's Andrew North in Washington says the White House is still discussing whether to release a video that was made of Bin Laden's burial from an aircraft carrier in the Arabian Sea, which some Islamic scholars have said did not conform with tradition.

 

Our correspondent says many people will want proof that Bin Laden is dead but the White House will be concerned about the reaction if the video, and still photographs of the body, are released.

 

Double post

Wow! Back on topic! Amazing!:stunned:

Wow! Back on topic! Amazing!

 

Not now that you've said this.

 

One of my teachers thinks he's still alive, welp.

A thread can survive the odd furore away from the original content. Especially when after most posts I made off topic I requested them to be moved. Threads are like living organisms, but if they stray too far off topic, or stay off topic too long, then things have to be done, providing it's a serious topic to begin with.

 

Is that OK Mark?

Nice contribution btw.

That'll be very fucking embarrassing for Pakistan if it is true, and USA sure won't be happy with them for a while.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13259869

 

I found this interesting.

(Make sure it's clicked on 'historians view' in the toolbar. It should be automatically)

Comments interesting too.

bet bin laden regrets using his iphone app to find his current location!

1. we don't need to answer to any1

2. we can't fight terrorism we can help people stuck in this by educating them and helping them find themselves

 

isn't it amazing that most rebels have child soldiers fighting their war

 

They do need to answer some questions. Yes it was that he was in the country, which on regular terms we know he's been for a while. But at the same time doesn't it sound extremely fishy that Bin Laden was found pretty much right next to a military compound, and also was found in a house that was just shy of being considered a military fortress (the thickness of the walls and barbed wire). I really doubt that they had no possible idea that he was there.

 

You can fight terrorism, but I agree that you need to educate people and let them know that what they're doing is wrong (in killing innocent lives over a bunch of man made stories).

 

 

 

not to get back off topic (though it still kind of is on topic), but I sometimes find it extremely amazing how some people can be so convinced that things in those books are 100% factual, and they devote their lives to it. I don't have a problem with religion... I could care less in knowing what you believe... but once it starts affecting other people or people take the texts to do wicked things, or priests are not jailed for child molestation but moved, or peoples beliefs are forced on others, that's when I have a problem with it

 

a few years ago media in middle east and pakistan reported abt his death but Americans didn't issue a statement

it was just better for Obama to announce it so near 2012 elections

 

...

 

They appear to have gone back on this today, rather bizarrely.

I am waiting to be proved wrong. I am not saying it is certain that he is dead, but it certainly appears so. Until there is proof he is alive, or died in another way to what is being said, then how can you 'believe it is American's trying to shut up Pakistan'?

 

Extremism is not a new thing, it has simply moved away from certain areas and now it is becoming more apparent to you. That does not mean you pass the book and don't get involved. But as you said, you are making some efforts. It is a winnable war.

 

What I believe in is not a set of dogmas which tell me what to do, and also influence those around me in a specific way. I don't force it on other people, I do not have to offer myself to anybody, I just live my life. I believe in many things, like believe that chocolate is tasty, but that does not make it a religion. I think you should look up religion, and also humanism, and see how they differ.

 

you believe in humanism and you want people killed without any chance given to prove themselves

thats like amputating a leg without knowing why it ached

 

these people don't need drone attacks and bombs to change, the wars have just multiplied the numbers instead of decreasing them, they need education, food and safety

 

did the talks solve the issue of northern Ireland england usually is still on red alert when something grand is happening like the wedding a few days ago. they are still afraid IRA will strike again

 

 

A thread can survive the odd furore away from the original content. Especially when after most posts I made off topic I requested them to be moved. Threads are like living organisms, but if they stray too far off topic, or stay off topic too long, then things have to be done, providing it's a serious topic to begin with.

 

Is that OK Mark?

Nice contribution btw.

 

+1

i agree its good to discuss these thing so we get to know the other sides story

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13259869

 

I found this interesting.

(Make sure it's clicked on 'historians view' in the toolbar. It should be automatically)

Comments interesting too.

 

i'm just reading that

 

They do need to answer some questions. Yes it was that he was in the country, which on regular terms we know he's been for a while. But at the same time doesn't it sound extremely fishy that Bin Laden was found pretty much right next to a military compound, and also was found in a house that was just shy of being considered a military fortress (the thickness of the walls and barbed wire). I really doubt that they had no possible idea that he was there.

 

You can fight terrorism, but I agree that you need to educate people and let them know that what they're doing is wrong (in killing innocent lives over a bunch of man made stories).

 

 

 

not to get back off topic (though it still kind of is on topic), but I sometimes find it extremely amazing how some people can be so convinced that things in those books are 100% factual, and they devote their lives to it. I don't have a problem with religion... I could care less in knowing what you believe... but once it starts affecting other people or people take the texts to do wicked things, or priests are not jailed for child molestation but moved, or peoples beliefs are forced on others, that's when I have a problem with it

 

he was never an ISI agent he had been CIA agent so ask your agencies why they armed him like they did

 

and btw who is asking you people to start following any religion

leave the people who do believe in their books and their god and stop forcing your opinions on them

 

...

 

They appear to have gone back on this today, rather bizarrely.

 

coz the gods of they world have spoken :laugh3:

 

he was never an ISI agent he had been CIA agent so ask your agencies why they armed him like they did

 

and btw who is asking you people to start following any religion

leave the people who do believe in their books and their god and stop forcing your opinions on them

 

 

 

I'm not saying that he was a ISI member. He was given money from the US and the reason being that he was helping to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 80's. Of course though it's always the bad guys that we help out... not saying that's right.

 

What I'm saying is that it's very strange and unbelievable that he was found so close to the capitol, right next to a military academy (which in any country would have high security). So it sounds a bit ridiculous that no one had any idea who was there. Of course I can understand since Pakistan is divided on Osama bin Laden and the US as some people are in support and opposition.

 

 

No one is asking me to join thankfully. I'm saying that there are a lot of areas of the world that you are severely persecuted or even killed just for being a different religion. I think it's ridiculous! like I said before I could care less what people believe in. But when it comes to people being persecuted or killed over their beliefs, that's when it's wrong.

 

What I'm also saying is that Bin Laden and his followers were radical religious fanatics that took their texts to an extreme and used that religion to kill those people. Afterall they felt that what they were doing was acceptable by God and they would be rewarded by those virgins in heaven.

you believe in humanism and you want people killed without any chance given to prove themselves

thats like amputating a leg without knowing why it ached

 

these people don't need drone attacks and bombs to change, the wars have just multiplied the numbers instead of decreasing them, they need education, food and safety

 

did the talks solve the issue of northern Ireland england usually is still on red alert when something grand is happening like the wedding a few days ago. they are still afraid IRA will strike again

 

 

 

 

+1

i agree its good to discuss these thing so we get to know the other sides story

 

 

 

i'm just reading that

 

 

 

coz the gods of they world have spoken :laugh3:

 

I don't want people killed, I said myself throughout the first few pages of this thread that this was not justice. I think it's insulting to the people who lost loved ones in 9/11, and indeed all over the world due to Al Qaeda, to call it justice. Some will see it as justice, but that is for them to say of their own personal opinion.

 

America were after bin Laden and with good reason. They ended up killing him. I'm not condoning that and haven't done at all. There may have been good reason for it, there may not have been. I'm pretty sure I'm never going to know. What I do know is that efforts had to be made to get to him, regardless of whether he was a threat or not. Like the nazi war criminals still hunted down. You cannot let these people get away with things, and you have to try and get to them and bring proper justice, rather than letting them get away with it. Like I said, whether or not they could have kept him alive we won't know, and there will be many theories that go around, but it would appear that Pakistan did not do enough to even allow any form of justice to ever take place, continually telling people that he was not in your country, was in Afghanistan, or was even dead (as you have said, though i'm not aware of it, though i believe you). Fair enough if this is what they believed, but with what has happened these last two days you have to admit this is embarrassing for Pakistan? And if they took your defence as their answer - that attempting to get to these people is not the way to fight terrorism - then it will look even worse. Of course education is the key, but it has to go both ways. When people do what bin Laden has done, or at least claimed to have done, then you cannot just ignore it.

 

If you look into the situation with the IRA things have improved massively, and a mixture of punishment for the people involved and education has worked very well, so i don't see how this backs up your point of harbouring terrorists. At the very best your government just looks incredibly foolish.

 

 

With the last bit are you saying that they are bowing to what America has said, even though they know it is lies? They are prepared to look like absolute fools, just to please an American conspiracy? That's one of the more ridiculous claims you have made and even if true, an even sadder account of the country. They should work on truth and not support America if that was the case. If they had evidence America would not bomb the hell out of you, it would be too scared as it has its own rivals.

More interesting news that has come out is that they found out about Bin Ladens whereabouts because I guess the government waterboarded a terrorist, who gave the name and I guess who Bin Laden's courier was which led to knowing where he was.

 

So I guess it brings up another interesting topic in terms of torture. I mean yes people have rights, but if you know for a fact that someone is a terrorist and willing to kill people, isn't it dare I say acceptable if it can save more lives?

I'm against it.

 

It appears to have worked in this specific case, if that is correct (as it is believed to be) but we do not know how many other people have received this treatment in the hunt for him who did not deserve it. After all, they are not going to come out and say we tortured this guy, but we didn't find him... better look next time :awesome:

 

It is methods to extract a confession, even if there is no confession to make. There are other ways of doing it than that.

I'm against it.

 

It appears to have worked in this specific case, if that is correct (as it is believed to be) but we do not know how many other people have received this treatment in the hunt for him who did not deserve it. After all, they are not going to come out and say we tortured this guy, but we didn't find him... better look next time :awesome:

 

It is methods to extract a confession, even if there is no confession to make. There are other ways of doing it than that.

For me I think if it can prevent an attack it should be done. Like say if there was word of a nuclear bomb being set off somewhere in the world, would you deny the use of torture to save the lives and prevent it from happening?

 

 

However if that's the case it's going to make things difficult to define what is acceptable or not. I think that if you have absolute proof that someone knows information then go for it. Like for example what was done with this Bin Laden raid. They knew about this starting in August, but took the time to make sure that they were completely correct before making a move.

 

I do though see what you mean in that I'm sure there have been many people that have been tortured that didn't deserve it. If anything I guess I feel it should be a last resort.

This topic might even be worth its own thread.

Personally, I'm against any kind of physical torture. It degrades humans to the lowest level possible and I find it almost disgusting that the United States, a nation that claims to be progressive and just, is still using it to such an extent.

 

For me I think if it can prevent an attack it should be done. Like say if there was word of a nuclear bomb being set off somewhere in the world' date=' would you deny the use of torture to save the lives and prevent it from happening?[/quote']

 

I see your point and the information gathered through torture might or might not save lives, but I personally think that there are always different ways.

I don't want people killed, I said myself throughout the first few pages of this thread that this was not justice. I think it's insulting to the people who lost loved ones in 9/11, and indeed all over the world due to Al Qaeda, to call it justice. Some will see it as justice, but that is for them to say of their own personal opinion.

 

America were after bin Laden and with good reason. They ended up killing him. I'm not condoning that and haven't done at all. There may have been good reason for it, there may not have been. I'm pretty sure I'm never going to know. What I do know is that efforts had to be made to get to him, regardless of whether he was a threat or not. Like the nazi war criminals still hunted down. You cannot let these people get away with things, and you have to try and get to them and bring proper justice, rather than letting them get away with it. Like I said, whether or not they could have kept him alive we won't know, and there will be many theories that go around, but it would appear that Pakistan did not do enough to even allow any form of justice to ever take place, continually telling people that he was not in your country, was in Afghanistan, or was even dead (as you have said, though i'm not aware of it, though i believe you). Fair enough if this is what they believed, but with what has happened these last two days you have to admit this is embarrassing for Pakistan? And if they took your defence as their answer - that attempting to get to these people is not the way to fight terrorism - then it will look even worse. Of course education is the key, but it has to go both ways. When people do what bin Laden has done, or at least claimed to have done, then you cannot just ignore it.

 

If you look into the situation with the IRA things have improved massively, and a mixture of punishment for the people involved and education has worked very well, so i don't see how this backs up your point of harbouring terrorists. At the very best your government just looks incredibly foolish.

 

 

With the last bit are you saying that they are bowing to what America has said, even though they know it is lies? They are prepared to look like absolute fools, just to please an American conspiracy? That's one of the more ridiculous claims you have made and even if true, an even sadder account of the country. They should work on truth and not support America if that was the case. If they had evidence America would not bomb the hell out of you, it would be too scared as it has its own rivals.

 

i never really liked bin laden or the hype he got both from western media or our own media and i'm not saying that the leaders of such organizations should not be trailed and convicted

 

i just don't think people realize that the young boys who follow them are not blinded by the promise of 72 virgins (thats wht you get if u go to heaven anyhow)

 

all these international NGO's and madrassas in pakistan (which the west thinks are the terrorist breading ground) want these kids ingratiated into society and get proper education and a social standing

 

poverty is a very cruel thing and when a man can't see a future they are willing to kill and die coz they don't see any justice

 

thats how people rebel

 

and don't worry abt us being embarrassed by a president who's so corrupt he's known as Mr. 10% and a useless prime minister:laugh3:

 

abt finding him near kakul, thats where my conspiracy theorist comes out and again i say that the news of him being found there was a punishment for our secret services

 

a few months ago America jailed two ISI agents who were there on their invite and in answer ISI got Raymond davis caught.

it became a public issue and although the government released him the Pakistani people had something new to hate about a crumbling empire

For me I think if it can prevent an attack it should be done. Like say if there was word of a nuclear bomb being set off somewhere in the world, would you deny the use of torture to save the lives and prevent it from happening?

 

 

However if that's the case it's going to make things difficult to define what is acceptable or not. I think that if you have absolute proof that someone knows information then go for it. Like for example what was done with this Bin Laden raid. They knew about this starting in August, but took the time to make sure that they were completely correct before making a move.

 

I do though see what you mean in that I'm sure there have been many people that have been tortured that didn't deserve it. If anything I guess I feel it should be a last resort.

 

That's a decent point. Perhaps torture should be used only in extreme cases the problem is how you define extreme.

well that's the problem with anything really is defining that line

i never really liked bin laden

 

Good answer...

 

or the hype he got both from western media or our own media and i'm not saying that the leaders of such organizations should not be trailed and convicted

 

i just don't think people realize that the young boys who follow them are not blinded by the promise of 72 virgins (thats wht you get if u go to heaven anyhow)

 

What kind of fucked up religion promises that? I presume most will have been through a loving marriage, with a family, and then they get to fuck around at the end. Surely that's wrong? What a lovely thought for a wife to have as she dies.

 

all these international NGO's and madrassas in pakistan (which the west thinks are the terrorist breading ground) want these kids ingratiated into society and get proper education and a social standing

 

poverty is a very cruel thing and when a man can't see a future they are willing to kill and die coz they don't see any justice

 

thats how people rebel

 

I agree with this, whole heartedly. You sort out the problems and then people don't need to rebel. But as it stands there are problems, and it's a long process, so the world as a whole needs to pull together to help those in need and the richer nations should support others and prevent these things from happening, whilst also in the meantime cutting down on these attacks and not bowing to their pressure and appeasing them in order to prevent future retaliation. I'm a firm believer of no negotiation with terrorists, as in the long term, when they see that there is no compromise, there is greater fear within them. A fear which the extremists deserve in my eyes.

 

I do believe also, that more could be done to support the less fortunate nations, and I'm disgusted with how many of the richer nations aren't helping enough.

I'm all for making the torture thing a new thread. It's not something I know much about and I feel I could learn a lot from looking into it and seeing other peoples views.

I see the whole 72 virgin thing as just a way to sexually repress people. I mean think about it... if you were to be rewarded that amount of virgins in heaven, as cynical or fucked up as it sounds wouldn't it push you to want to get there faster?

 

Like I saw this the other day and it was funny I thought, but also interesting:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReNIc1K76nM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReNIc1K76nM[/ame]

I'm all for making the torture thing a new thread. It's not something I know much about and I feel I could learn a lot from looking into it and seeing other peoples views.

 

i say go for it... it'd be something interesting to discuss

Where would these virgins come from anyway? Is it their hell to end up being the heaven for some random guy?