I'll refer you to part of my original post in this thread, made about ten minutes after I found out about bin Laden's death:

 

If anyone on this board did this:

 

"Crowds gathered outside the White House in Washington DC, chanting "USA, USA" after the news emerged."

 

You are simple.

 

I stand by it.

 

It's took a relatively long time for a significant number of people (not talking about this board apart from the cringe bit coming up, more generally in the news etc) to move from delight, to minor cringing at it, to starting to understand the potential severity of reacting in that way.

 

The hysteria will have played a part though, and if it had been an attack on English soil and our government forced a ridiculous amount of propaganda on us then I'm sure the scenes would have been the same here. In fact even just the uneducated, without propaganda.

I agree with what you guys are saying for the most part. All of the celebrations made me cringe too. Initially, I felt a slight sense of relief when I heard the news, but I wasn't about to go out and do what some of those people were doing in such a celebratory manner.

 

However, I also think you guys are grossly over-simplifying it by saying "celebrating anyone's death bad". I don't think that's entirely what it was. I've gotta think a little more about how I want to explain it, I just woke up. I'll post more detail later.

I wouldn't care if somebody thought it was a positive thing (I'm still waiting on Thatcher to depart), but it's not something to take to the streets for. Celebration of death is completely different to simply seeing it as a positive thing and it's also incredibly naive (at best) in this circumstance. I think the way to deal with it is personally and dare I say it respectfully (for those who died in 9/11 rather than whoever's death sparked this feeling), but hey, people can do what they want. Just don't expect me not to point out how foolish they look and are being. I'm not gonna actually stop them.

Celebration of death

But that's part of the point I'm going to make, is that you guys are over-simplifying it by saying that it was just about his death.

I'll wait till you make your point then, but I don't think my opinion changes even after taking into account the huge symbolism and relief connected to it, since it's obvious to most the backlash such actions could result in.

Celebrating any death seems odd to me.

 

I also cringe at pictures of families watching the execution of the murderer of a loved one. That has a lot to do with my opinion about death penalty though.

It just doesn't seem like justice to me to see the one who caused you this pain suffer the same fate. In my eyes, that's not justice, it's vengeance, which is in contradiction to the Christian values many Americans believe in.

 

I can understand the immediate reaction of those who went on the streets to a certain degree. But screaming "USA! USA!" just seemed like provocation and a very immature "IN YO FACE"-statement towards opponents of the United States. Just because there were people celebrating 9/11, doesn't mean US citizens have to do the same now, now that bin Laden is dead. Even if the death fills them with relief and happiness (which is more than understandable), it would be immensely important to show it in a respectful manner.

I agree Imke - exactly as you said it. It is immature and maybe even indicative of some mass identification with power for power's sake, as though the world's countries and cultures are nothing but sports teams, and cheer for the home team to beat (literally and figuratively) the "opponents" elsewhere - totally weird.

Massive multi-quote followed by my response.

 

I agree with what you guys are saying for the most part. All of the celebrations made me cringe too. Initially, I felt a slight sense of relief when I heard the news, but I wasn't about to go out and do what some of those people were doing in such a celebratory manner.

 

However, I also think you guys are grossly over-simplifying it by saying "celebrating anyone's death bad". I don't think that's entirely what it was. I've gotta think a little more about how I want to explain it, I just woke up. I'll post more detail later.

I'll wait till you make your point then, but I don't think my opinion changes even after taking into account the huge symbolism and relief connected to it, since it's obvious to most the backlash such actions could result in.

 

Okay first, just to clarify my personal stance:

- I felt a slight sense of relief about it (that he's gone), but I also worry about the consequences

- I cringed when I saw the 'celebrations' on TV

- I would NOT have gone out in the streets like that

 

However, as I mentioned, I think this reaction of disgust over seeing the 'celebrations' is being over-simplified. Were there people out there that were solely celebrating his death? Sure. Those are the ones I'm cringing at (as well as most of you here). But we can't say that's what every single person out there was doing.

 

Many people were expressing more of a sense of relief that this person who has taken up so much attention over the past years and cost thousands of lives either through the attacks or through the resulting effort to find him, is no longer here; he no longer has to be found. More years don't have to be wasted hoping he is found, thinking it may never come to fruition. Now, while I expressed relief in the comfort of my home by not really saying anything and then proceeding to go to sleep for the night shortly after, other people feeling a sense of camaraderie decided to go out and be around other people. (Let's face it, some people prefer to be around other people in certain situations, some people prefer to be by themselves.) Now, when these individuals meet up with the others, they might decide to express their relief in a sense of unity with the others; the unifying factor being 'USA blah blah blah'. But how do we know who is who? WE CAN'T. That's why I think it's over-simplifying it to say, "oh look at each and every one of those people, they are all simply celebrating death, how dare they."

 

 

Maybe it might be better to relate the above in an analogy:

 

Pretend some dude is a 40-year-old virgin and his friends have been routing for him to get laid for several years, to no avail. Then finally one day he announces to his friends that last night he spent 40 minutes with a prostitute. Some of his friends say, "You were with a prostitute?! Cool!" Umm, NO that's not cool. His other friends are thinking, "Finally, he got laid after all these years." Regardless of which of his friends think what, they all go out to the bar with him to revel in the fact that he is no longer a 40-year-old virgin. Of course, they soon realize that there could be bad consequences of the 40 minutes he spent with the prostitute, i.e., an STD or two. But regardless, they won't be wondering for the next 10 to 20 years if he will ever get laid. It's done.

Now if I'm sitting in the same bar observing this from afar, how do I know which friends are thinking what? I DON'T.

 

 

That might be a piss-poor analogy, but I think it's a good idea to depart from the actual topic so the emotinal factor is mostly removed from the judgments/comparisons.

 

Anywho.

I see what you mean, but you have to question their intelligence then. The first thing I, and many of my friends thought was 'shit's gonna kick off'. I agree that not everyone will be celebrating death, and yes some people do prefer being around others, but they are incredibly naive. I honestly don't think you would see it in some of the European countries on anywhere near the scale.

 

My points haven't been as much about them celebrating death, it has been about their lack of intuition to realise what could come from their actions and how it could be perceived (if you said that post to the 'enemy' I don't think they would listen, and it is those who you'd rather believe), combined with the constant use of the word justice.

 

But yes, I concede that we have tarred a lot of people with the same brush who do not deserve it.

I see what you're saying - yes, not everyone was out there celebrating this as some sports analogy 'victory', some were simply relieved, and wanted to feel a sense of camaraderie at that moment. Perhaps what shows up on TV is the noisy boisterous types who were chanting "USA USA USA" , since they make the biggest splash in the press. But I wonder about the numbers of each, and how this will be seen elsewhere - impressions are hard to undo, even when they are not indicative of the whole.

Even so, what bothers me is that in previous moves to deal with suspicious or criminal leaders, due process has always been preserved. If for no other reason than for the preservation of our system of justice, that the principle must be upheld in all cases where an impartial trial for alleged crimes committed takes place.

That has slid - Milosevic was tried, Mugabe was tried, and many others were tried in international courts. It appears Bin Laden could have been captured and tried, but instead he was killed on the spot - which is a loss of due process.

When we loose due process, we set a bad precedent - it says to people who were unaware of Bin Laden's crimes that we don't stand for justice, we just take revenge. It also sets up a precedent for assassinations, something we don't want to see go on.

Also, if there was involvement by others, this may have come to light at trial - but cannot now be brought out in the light for all to see.

I agree that not everyone will be celebrating death, and yes some people do prefer being around others, but they are incredibly naive. I honestly don't think you would see it in some of the European countries on anywhere near the scale.

I'm curious what the reaction was to Hitler's death. I'm not saying that in a snarky tone, I really haven't seen any footage of that (recently). But I highly doubt there were zero celebrations in Europe.

 

 

My points haven't been as much about them celebrating death, it has been about their lack of intuition to realise what could come from their actions and how it could be perceived (if you said that post to the 'enemy' I don't think they would listen, and it is those who you'd rather believe), combined with the constant use of the word justice.

True (regarding what could come from their actions); but I don't think we can say that nothing would happen if everyone stayed home and those soires didn't occur. The man is dead; regardless of how people express their reaction, there's going to be retaliation simply because he's dead.

Many people were expressing more of a sense of relief that this person who has taken up so much attention over the past years and cost thousands of lives either through the attacks or through the resulting effort to find him' date=' is no longer here; he no longer has to be found. More years don't have to be wasted hoping he is found, thinking it may never come to fruition. Now, while I expressed relief in the comfort of my home by not really saying anything and then proceeding to go to sleep for the night shortly after, other people feeling a sense of camaraderie decided to go out and be around other people. (Let's face it, some people prefer to be around other people in certain situations, some people prefer to be by themselves.) Now, when these individuals meet up with the others, they might decide to express their relief in a sense of unity with the others; the unifying factor being 'USA blah blah blah'. But how do we know who is who? WE CAN'T. That's why I think it's over-simplifying it to say, "oh look at each and every one of those people, they are all simply celebrating death, how dare they."[/quote']

 

I haven't considered this yet and of course you're right that not all of them went there for celebrating a death. And of course it must be a huge relief to know that no more lives have to be sacrificed just to hunt one man down.

 

I didn't mean to say that everyone present was shouting USA! USA!, I think there were probably quite a few people in front of the White House or at Ground Zero who thought this was too much too.

'Cheese-eating surrender monkeys': American anger at 'arrogant' Europeans' muted reaction to Bin Laden killing

 

 

By Daily Mail Reporter

Last updated at 7:13 PM on 5th May 2011

 

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• What happened to post-9/11 solidarity as Europe asks questions over legality and morality of killing unarmed man?
  
• Blogger calls Europeans: 'Arrogant, smug, thoughtless and thankless'
  
• Archbishop of Canterbury says killing of unarmed Bin Laden left him with 'a very uncomfortable feeling'
  

Religious reaction: The Archbishop of Canterbury said the killing of Osama Bin Laden while he was not armed has left him with 'a very uncomfortable feeling'

 

Europeans have been labelled 'cheese-eating surrender monkeys' by bloggers in the U.S. angry at being chastised for celebrating the death of Osama Bin Laden.

 

While thousands of Americans took to the streets to celebrate the killing, the reaction in Europe was much more muted.

 

Many have questioned not only the manner of the killing of an unarmed man, but also the taste and dignity of the American public who celebrated the act by chanting 'USA' in the streets, mocking up T-shirts and generally revelling in the moment.

 

One of those expressing these sentiments is the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, who said: 'I think the killing of an unarmed man is always going to leave a very uncomfortable feeling because it doesn't look as if justice is seen to be done.'

 

'In those circumstances, I think it's also true that the different versions of events that have emerged in recent days have not done a great deal to help.'

 

However, he went on: 'But I do believe that in such circumstances when we are faced with someone who was manifestly a war criminal in terms of the atrocities inflicted it is important that justice is seen to be served.'

 

When Bin Laden's men flew airliners into New York's World Trade Center ten years ago, it sparked an outpouring of solidarity from Europe, best captured by a French newspaper headline 'We are all Americans now'.

 

But that solidarity seemingly hasn't lasted.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1383802/Cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys-U-S-bloggers-slam-Europeans-muted-reaction-Bin-Laden-killing.html#ixzz1LVm5dex1

I'm curious what the reaction was to Hitler's death. I'm not saying that in a snarky tone, I really haven't seen any footage of that (recently). But I highly doubt there were zero celebrations in Europe.

 

 

True (regarding what could come from their actions); but I don't think we can say that nothing would happen if everyone stayed home and those soires didn't occur. The man is dead; regardless of how people express their reaction, there's going to be retaliation simply because he's dead.

 

I imagine the same as in America, since they were involved too. Relief first and foremost. A lack of sympathy towards Hitler (fair enough, sympathy depends on the people, you either have it or you don't). But his death brought about the end of the war. This one is not over. I'm surprised people didn't realise this.

 

I guess I'm just surprised that there was no forward thinking at all from some of the people. In that moment it was like they had won the war. Like everything was over. I just can't imagine what person would think that, even in the height of joy and relief.

 

Yes, retaliation is inevitable, but it's so much easier when they've got more propaganda to use. Helps to demonise you guys to the rest of the world. Could well be the thing that helps a future terrorist to join the fight.

Who are the bloggers Mark? Just saying 'bloggers' doesn't really mean much.

And anything to add to any of the threads?

I imagine the same as in America, since they were involved too. Relief first and foremost. A lack of sympathy towards Hitler (fair enough, sympathy depends on the people, you either have it or you don't). But his death brought about the end of the war. This one is not over. I'm surprised people didn't realise this.

 

I guess I'm just surprised that there was no forward thinking at all from some of the people. In that moment it was like they had won the war. Like everything was over. I just can't imagine what person would think that, even in the height of joy and relief.

 

Yes, retaliation is inevitable, but it's so much easier when they've got more propaganda to use. Helps to demonise you guys to the rest of the world. Could well be the thing that helps a future terrorist to join the fight.

yes - agreed on all counts

Here from the land of wine and cheese liberals, I can honestly say I feel much the same. But indeed this isn't over, since the root of the cause has barely been addressed, and since this insane "war on terror" is like making war on raindrops.

Why not re-brand it as an International Effort to Curb Violent Extremism? The IECEV ? Start with working to treat all citizens of the world justly, leveling the economic playing field, and respecting the traditions of all cultures? Put the emphasis and money on improved education, infrastructure, disease eradication and treatment, and fair trade? Seems a lot cheaper than all the ultra-expensive military hardware we've poured a good third of our U.S. budget into (covertly and otherwise). By some estimates, as much as 60% of the U.S. budget goes into war and war related things - seems like a lot more improvement in security could be had for a lot less if that money were spent elsewhere..

Here from the land of wine and cheese liberals, I can honestly say I feel much the same. But indeed this isn't over, since the root of the cause has barely been addressed, and since this insane "war on terror" is like making war on raindrops.

Why not re-brand it as an International Effort to Curb Violent Extremism? The IECEV ? Start with working to treat all citizens of the world justly, leveling the economic playing field, and respecting the traditions of all cultures? Put the emphasis and money on improved education, infrastructure, disease eradication and treatment, and fair trade? Seems a lot cheaper than all the ultra-expensive military hardware we've poured a good third of our U.S. budget into (covertly and otherwise). By some estimates, as much as 60% of the U.S. budget goes into war and war related things - seems like a lot more improvement in security could be had for a lot less if that money were spent elsewhere..

 

But what would they gain in that?

They don't work with love.

I don't care if people think of me as unpatriotic (because I love living in this country), but that whole chanting of "USA! USA! USA!" really annoys the hell out of me almost more than anything else.

 

Back to the topic I agree with pretty much everyone has said. I think it puts a bad image on our country and also the people that live in it. I personally don't like how by the rest of the world seeing that that it makes it easy to assume that I as well as the other 300 million Americans feel the same way.

 

I say if you want to "celebrate" his death, do it in the privacy of your own home.

 

This is definitely what happened.

I was just watching ABC World News tonight and they did a report regarding the fact that they also brought in some sort of special ops dog with them. These dogs are trained like Navy Seals. It even showed them jumping out of the helicopters with the dudes (in a general sense, not pictures from this specific mission). They wear waterproof bulletproof vests, trained to do specific things, have bugs planted in their ears so they can receive commands remotely, and... this is creepy... they have titanium teeth implanted so they have the ability to bite through Kevlar. :sick: The government is not allowed to reveal the specific breed used, but I'm guessing it's a hybrid of a few different breeds.

 

Wow.

Jaws! images (JPEG Image, 204x244 pixels)

I heard it is true, and a lot of people are celebrating it here. I am concerned about future violence and destruction as a result of this. We should take this slowly and be careful of the details.

Yes, I agree - better to not provoke a bad reaction, but alas, people do what comes to their minds.. rarely thinking about how others will react. Perhaps it's just the noisemakers who get the attention, but once that's out there, no telling what the reaction will be.

If only they had apprehended Osama, and given him a fair trial, aired all the truth, maybe that would have embarrassed certain people, but at least real justice would have been served, and perhaps citizens in Pakistan and elsewhere would have known the truth. Ending the motives that drive young people to violent extremism is the biggest thing we can do, however I know that's not easy with all the corruption everywhere. What to do, what to do.. First let's start with getting the U.S. on a level course, getting the money out of politics - beginning here allows for better policy choices affected everyone else in the world. Canada, England, U.S., Italy.. - we all need to reverse the trends..

 

hehe