^I don't come across as a fanatic or anything, right? D:

 

I'm not gonna go into that because these debates never turn out well and this is kinda irrelevant to the thread, but I will say it in no way leads to Hell.

 

I feel kinda bad for how hard Obama has to try to not upset people or lead to anything or anything haha.

But why would a God not allow practicing homosexuals in humanity, but would in the rest of the animal kingdom. And why would a God care about humans anyway, when you consider everything that has come before us and will come after us? Why does he need some form of moral conscience? And why are humans so vain as to assume any form of connection with a God if there was one? Do you not find that awful? Who are these special people who God talks to and let's them know all these wonderful snippets of information on the rules to live our lives? Why are things so strict when it comes to sex and does a gay man having gay sex really result in him going to hell forever? Wtf?

 

You're beginning to sound like the first ever atheist extremist. You are referring to creationists (In terms of Christians for example), a very small sect of that religion, and generally I don't think people who follow the Bible take the words as directly spoken from God, but interpreted to give an idea of what is morality and living a decent life, this does not mean that a person has to follow every rule literally. I especially disagree that people aren't moving on with the times, since the age of Enlightenment and being what we must now consider 'civilised' there's been the beginning of a standard of human rights, leading to womens rights, equality of races and now rights for homosexuals.

"Machines" that spout homophobic ramblings etc etc. Yes it's completely wrong and that's the bad side of religion but unfortunately people haven't moved with the times. These feelings were very common thousands of years back when such scripture was written and such feelings merely influenced such passages (passed off as God's own word of course) which is why it's totally wrong. But that's something that isn't pinpointed clearly by militant religious freaks and militant atheists. I think both sets seem to take such writings as having been written yesterday. Thankfully there are people within religion who do realise that.

 

What do you think about deism?

 

I've posted about this before, minus the Deism bit. Nothing against them. Whilst I can't conceive of a God with any interest in human life, or any form of consciousness, I don't mind other people being able to.

 

An increasingly small minority of Christians think that way you see. Christian's aren't all religious fanatics from the deep South.

 

I am aware of this, but religions are not needed. They are outdated, and the only effects they can lead to, that can't be found from within from your own moral compass, aside from a sense of community (which can be generated in other ways) are negative in my eyes. Supporting them only serves to prolong their life-spans and help poison the lives of millions. Whilst there will be other ways for people to do that if religion wasn't there, that does not mean it should be allowed to have a free ride without being challenged, and not have to answer to it's critics. Without religion, not all the problems it creates would be replaced with other ones, and therefore it is worthwhile to continue to pressure it, in an intellectual way.

 

 

 

 

Move this to another thread.

Had he even been doing anything while he was missing? I admit I don't know much at all about Osama.

Had he even been doing anything while he was missing? I admit I don't know much at all about Osama.

 

Nothing of any influence. Apart from keeping up the spirits and motivation of his fellow extremists by releasing video and audio tapes the last 10 years were spent with him pretty much imprisoning himself trying to escape those hunting him down.

You kinda have to wonder why he was on the most wanted list in the first place, it's considered a success by the CIA but look at the other 9 people and their crimes compared to 9/11, it's not like you'd spot Osama buying some groceries.

 

Oddly 9/11 wasn't even mentioned on his bio.

the men who wrote the Bible, with their interpretations and their feelings, not a power of love called God or Jesus.

and those who wrote the Bible even thought that women not the equals of men just like the Muslim religion thinks of women.

For me, Christianity is dying with Jesus not more Christians to write the Bible and the true Jesus was crucified

by the Jewish not Romans . they had their Gods and Goddesses.

 

and ban sex, in the christianity and the religions well but never in the bible of God called love and equality

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_of_Songs

is my vision I'm agostic. I seek the truth

dahhh

 

I'm not going to pretend like I know so much about it, even if it was mentioned.. or just what's been on the news nonstop, without the weather :blank:

All I know is that that other guy from egypt is going to kill people in some tragic way. My mom said that he's very sangriento.. so I guess he's bloody. He likes blood. So I hope Americans, or the world is prepared.

the men who wrote the Bible, with their interpretations and their feelings, not a power of love called God or Jesus.

and those who wrote the Bible even thought that women not the equals of men just like the Muslim religion thinks of women.

For me, Christianity is dying with Jesus not more Christians to write the Bible and the true Jesus was crucified

by the Jewish not Romans . they had their Gods and Goddesses.

 

Lory for the first time I think I understand what you're saying.

 

Christianity wasn't the original Monotheistic religion but was put forth at a perfect time as a simple religion, forget having 15 deities of sun, earth, fire, milk, it was simplicity. This is why it caught on and became so popular.

 

The mention of God or Jesus is minimal in the bible unless it directly relates to a story involving them, there are many passages where the words 'God' or 'Jesus' are never mentioned. So basically this made it a very flexible religion in a time of static action (The Roman empire was neither gaining or losing power) and things such as sexism against women or homophobia simply were part of the testaments to appeal to people in power, otherwise it would be quashed, these themes were never meant to be the forefront of the religion, as many creationists believe it is.

How Bin Laden's burial at sea denies his fanatical followers a shrine

 

 

By Vanessa Allen

Last updated at 1:16 AM on 3rd May 2011

 

• Comments (7)
  
• Add to My Stories
  

 

• Muslim clerics rage that Osama bin Laden did not receive a proper Islamic burial
  
• The U.S. used multiple means to positively identify bin Laden before burial
  
• Two Pentagon officials say the burial was videotaped and could be released
  
• One report said bin Laden had a 'massive head wound above his left eye where he took bullet, with brains and blood visible'
  

Osama Bin Laden was given an Islamic burial at sea, U.S. officials revealed, in a move which will rob the terror leader’s followers of a shrine.

The U.S. claimed the sea burial was handled in accordance with Muslim laws which demand the body should be washed, wrapped and buried within 24 hours.

A defence official said Bin Laden’s corpse was taken aboard an American aircraft carrier, the USS Carl Vinson, and buried in the North Arabian Sea, although the exact location was not revealed.

Ship: The USS Carl Vinson aircraft carrier took Osama bin Laden's body to the North Arabian sea where they disposed of him following Islamic traditions

 

Gone but not forgotten: Muslim clerics are predicting revenge attacks against American targets

 

He said ‘preparations for at-sea burial began at 1.10am EST (6.10am UK time)’ and were completed 50 minutes later.

The body was placed in a white sheet and then a weighted bag, and a military officer read ‘prepared religious remarks’, which were translated into Arabic by a native speaker, before the body was eased into the sea.

The decision has exercised conspiracy theorists, who demanded to know why Bin Laden’s body was not preserved and displayed to prove the U.S. had actually killed him, while some clerics dubbed it a deliberate insult to Islam.

The defence official made no comment on claims that Saudi Arabia had refused to accept Saudi-born Bin Laden’s corpse for burial.

The White House is understood to have been warned it would be difficult to find any country willing to accept his remains.

The haste of the burial has been questioned, as the U.S. has not always observed the 24-hour rule for Muslim burials.

In 2003 the bodies of Saddam Hussein’s sons Uday and Qusay were embalmed and held for 11 days before they were released for burial.

 

More...

 

 

• MARK ALMOND: Dead but already a martyr: What Bin Laden's death means for the West… and its strained relationship with Islam
  
• 'We got him!' Bin Laden's death sparks wild celebrations at Ground Zero and outside White House
  
• 40 minutes and he was dead: Dramatic reconstruction of how U.S. hit squad took out Bin Laden
  
• 'Obama is dead': BBC and U.S. networks make embarrassing error reporting Bin Laden's death
  
• Bin Laden: Is this the coup that rescued Obama’s presidency?
  
• Will cutting off the snake's head kill Al Qaeda when Bin Laden was little more than an isolated figurehead?
  
• Passengers face tougher checks in the wake of Bin Laden's death
  

 

The U.S. is also thought to have been anxious to avoid burying the corpse on land over fears the grave would become a rallying point for militants, even if left unmarked.

Speech: President Obama said bin Laden was buried in accordance with Islamic tradition but Muslims are claiming they did not do this

 

Burial place: Osama bin Laden's body was taken out to sea and dumped in the North Arabian Sea from the deck of the USS Carl Vinson officials have confirmed

 

 

Scene: Several methods were said to have been used to identify bin Laden after he was shot during a raid at this hideout in Abbottabad

 

 

ISLAMIC BURIAL TRADITION

 

Funerals in Islam follow specific rites procedures.

 

Sharia law (Islamic religious law) calls for burial of the body which includes a ritual where the body is bathed and shrouded followed by salah (prayer).

 

Cremation of the body is forbidden as most burials occur in a grave with the head facing Mecca.

The body should be lowered into the water, 'in a vessel of clay or a weight tied to its feet', and as far as possible, it should 'not be lowered at a point where it is eaten up immediately by sea predators'.

 

Tradition dictates that the body is washed by Muslim men and a funeral prayer is said, then it is buried as soon as possible, usually within 24 hours.

 

The body is wrapped in a shroud of white cloth and the face is moved toward mecca. The remains are always buried in the earth.

 

Similar to the orthodox Jewish tradition, bodies cannot be embalmed or in any way preserved and the coffin, if used, must be wooden.

 

Islamic teachings say burials such as Bin Laden’s are permissible if the person has died while travelling at sea and they are too far from land to permit a burial.

But Bin Laden died on land and should have been buried with his head pointed towards Mecca, clerics said.

Radical preacher Omar Bakri Mohammed, who is banned from returning to Britain, said: ‘The Americans want to humiliate Muslims through this burial.’

Dubai’s highest official of religious law, grand mufti Mohammed al-Qubaisi, said: ‘Sea burials are permissible for Muslims in extraordinary circumstances. This is not one of them.

‘They [the U.S.] can say they buried him at sea, but they cannot say they did it according to Islam.

‘If the family does not want him, it’s really simple in Islam – you dig up a grave anywhere, even on a remote island, you say the prayers and that’s it.’

Islamic scholar Abdul Sattar al-Janabi, who preaches in Baghdad, added: ‘What was done by the Americans is forbidden by Islam and might provoke some Muslims.

‘It is not acceptable and it is almost a crime to throw the body of a Muslim man into the sea.’

But Mohammed Qudah, a professor of Islamic law at the University of Jordan, suggested burial at sea was not forbidden.

He said: ‘The land and the sea belong to God, who is able to protect and raise the dead at the end of times for Judgment Day.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1382922/Osama-Bin-Laden-How-burial-sea-denies-fanatics-shrine.html#ixzz1LFRMDfHI

justice at last..... :cry:

Pakistan now has explaining to do. We give them so much money and not only was Bin Laden in Pakistan but he was so close to a military base. I highly doubt that they had no idea what was going on or that he was there. I mean they were describing the base being close to that of a military standard fortress. Also we have given them so much money to help fight against terrorists. I'm not saying that we attack them or whatever but I say cut funding to them since apparently we are still giving them billions of dollars.

 

 

 

Also from what I've heard they used waterboarding that helped to get the whereabouts of Bin Laden. I think that this also opens the topic again of torture. I have mixed feelings about it. I think that of course people have their rights but if they are clearly part of a terrorist organization planning to attack and kill innocent people then I feel it should be used in order to prevent that from happening.

Pakistan now has explaining to do. We give them so much money and not only was Bin Laden in Pakistan but he was so close to a military base. I highly doubt that they had no idea what was going on or that he was there. I mean they were describing the base being close to that of a military standard fortress. Also we have given them so much money to help fight against terrorists. I'm not saying that we attack them or whatever but I say cut funding to them since apparently we are still giving them billions of dollars.

 

 

 

Also from what I've heard they used waterboarding that helped to get the whereabouts of Bin Laden. I think that this also opens the topic again of torture. I have mixed feelings about it. I think that of course people have their rights but if they are clearly part of a terrorist organization planning to attack and kill innocent people then I feel it should be used in order to prevent that from happening.

 

 

I agree. Pakistan have a lot to answer for. A senior NATO official claimed last year that Osama Bin Laden was living in Northern Pakistan in relative luxury protected by the Pakistani intelligence which Pakistan denied. He was right.

From October 2010.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8070836/Osama-bin-Laden-living-comfortably-in-Pakistan.html

^you mean Osama right? :lol:

^you mean Osama right? :lol:

 

:laugh3: That would be a story! First time I've tripped over the two names today! Corrected!

:lol:

 

 

that's alright... the names are really similar

:lol:

 

 

that's alright... the names are really similar

 

I've seen too many Obama 1, Osama 0 posters on the news today! But I don't really get the whole jubilation. Bin Laden's killing is one thing but those who lost their loved ones because of him will never get them back.

I agree. I mean last night I saw people chanting "USA USA" over and over. I mean it's good that the fucker is dead, but It annoys me with people that act that way. I guess mainly because I've never fully understood national pride. It's good that a big terrorist leader is out of the picture but at the same time the threat is still out there.

‎10 years, 2 wars, 919,967 deaths, and $1,188,263,000,000 (interest and inflation not included) later, we managed to kill one person. Worth it?

 

not at all

You're beginning to sound like the first ever atheist extremist. You are referring to creationists (In terms of Christians for example), a very small sect of that religion, and generally I don't think people who follow the Bible take the words as directly spoken from God, but interpreted to give an idea of what is morality and living a decent life, this does not mean that a person has to follow every rule literally. I especially disagree that people aren't moving on with the times, since the age of Enlightenment and being what we must now consider 'civilised' there's been the beginning of a standard of human rights, leading to womens rights, equality of races and now rights for homosexuals.

 

But I point out those extreme circumstances because in so many cases, those people are assisted directly or indirectly by enabling moderate or fringe followers. For example in the Catholic church, much of the money generated from it's followers goes to such negative effects, even in the most recent times. Whether it has been towards preventing condom use (which has only this decade been informally backtracked on), preying on the uneducated and poverty stricken around the world, instead of trying to help them through their struggles, like the equivalent of a lawyer chasing an ambulance except also getting in the way of the paramedics. It isn't just Catholicism of course, it goes across all the major religions. It's a blueprint telling people how to live their lives (but in forceful ways and with great fear of punishment included), and the most modern 'popular' religions, such as Mormonism and Scientology, come under a lot of criticism because of some of their less generally accepted beliefs, yet they aren't any more ridiculous than from other religions. It is simply that it has had time to be ingrained into society that some of the major religions get such an easy ride (and whilst they are often criticised I would say it is fair that generally speaking, they get a very easy ride for many of the atrocities at their feet).

 

Islam, in itself a copy of Christianity in many ways (which has been mentioned, I think in the quote I have quoted below, is in itself nowhere near the first of it's type and was copied in many parts itself), has it's own dogmas, which I think are far more widespread than they are than in Christianity, which does not have the same hold over it's followers as it used to. But something that does not allow their prophet to appear in a cartoon on fear of death, something that certainly does not allow homosexuals almost entirely throughout it's followers, something which forces many who aen't even part of the religion into self censorship, just isn't acceptable in my eyes. I also do not believe from the female Muslim's I have met are viewed as equal to their male counterparts, and this is in a supposedly progressive society. The world has a long way to go to embrace equality, but I see Islam, generally speaking, to be behind most other religions in terms of general living and family life. That is my opinion. I have a lot more learning to do on the subject and will continue to meet people involved in the religion, but at the time of typing, this is how I view it.

 

And just because things happened in the past it does not devalue the amount of trauma it has caused. It's quite insulting to pass it off as 'another time' since even some of the most senior religious figures cling on to the oppressive pasts of their religions. If people don't believe in those things then they should perhaps move to a more personal or spiritual belief system, in which they don't enter in to the support of such a machine (yes, I'll keep using that word), by all means following any holy book they wish providing it doesn't infringe on other peoples freedoms. But once you get a mass of people, even believing different things, supporting one machine, it's so easy to be used in such negative ways, when many of the people don't even need to be entering into such a thing.

 

If this was some other organisaton which said such things then it would be lambasted. Just because it is a religion it does not mean that it should not have to face such criticism. I would never do anything negative towards a pious person who does no harm to others (I wouldn't even do anything negative towards somebody who does infringe on others as I am certainly not the violent type, I'd simply pass it on to somebody else in authority to deal with), but as soon as they start doing that I think they should justify exactly what they do. I debate with pious people all the time and I am friends with many, I put forward my points and if they are still comfortable in their beliefs then fair enough, I leave it. If they are debating with me I shall carry on putting forward my beliefs however, and if they get offended then that is their own problem and they can deal with that in whatever way they will, once again as long as it doesn't infringe on other peoples freedoms. But I have never said somebody can't be religious and I don't actively look to disrupt people's religions, aside from through discussions and attempting to get people to look into exactly what they are supporting, which I think they should be doing anyway.

 

Lory for the first time I think I understand what you're saying.

 

Christianity wasn't the original Monotheistic religion but was put forth at a perfect time as a simple religion, forget having 15 deities of sun, earth, fire, milk, it was simplicity. This is why it caught on and became so popular.

 

The mention of God or Jesus is minimal in the bible unless it directly relates to a story involving them, there are many passages where the words 'God' or 'Jesus' are never mentioned. So basically this made it a very flexible religion in a time of static action (The Roman empire was neither gaining or losing power) and things such as sexism against women or homophobia simply were part of the testaments to appeal to people in power, otherwise it would be quashed, these themes were never meant to be the forefront of the religion, as many creationists believe it is.

 

Simply saying let's keep following these books but ignore certain underlying themes and passages isn't good enough in my eyes. If it is out of date and out of touch then surely an update is required at the very least (and I don't mean a Joseph Smith style one). All that the holy books can offer (other than eternal life) can be found in other ways, so pursuing the case of trying to get people to consider this and also pointing out many of the negatives of religion, even in it's more marginalised forms is not extreme atheism in my eyes, it is just trying to have a positive impact, because at the end of the day, I believe organised religion has so much to answer for.

He shouldn't have put his real address when registering for the Playstation Network :P

 

He either died 4 years ago or he is still alive, with all this "we killed him" as a stunt.

HAHHAHAHAHAHAAA

fact damn sony

 

a few years ago media in middle east and pakistan reported abt his death but Americans didn't issue a statement

it was just better for Obama to announce it so near 2012 elections

 

Yes, it is the people who are afraid who say he isn't a Muslim, but that is just because you are distancing your self from him. He was a Muslim. This does not mean it was your fault though, of course. I'm pretty sure nobody is saying that. But to say he wasn't a Muslim just because he interpreted it a different way is just a get out clause. Many Catholics disagree with the Pope's view on things, but they don't claim he isn't a Catholic.

 

And from what I've seen, whether it's cricket scandals or bin Laden, Pakistan never seem to think they have done anything wrong and always seem to think it's a massive conspiracy against them, and only them and therefore spend a lot of time feeling sorry for yourself. The truth is, it is very hard to pull off such a conspiracy in the 'oppositions' country (if that's how you are viewing yourself) and get away with it, without you being able to see through it and find evidence of it, and we shall see if Pakistan manages it. The world is now watching for them to prove America wrong.

 

:lol: we Pakistani's do love scandals and conspiracy theories

and unlike you people we don't trust our government, army or any world media

i still think this was a way of America shutting us up

NATO supplies go from pakistan and from last few weeks opposition leaders along with the students from around the country were blocking the route

and the youth of our country was pissed off on our stupid government agreeing with the drone attacks

 

only 4000 people died in 9/11 but more then 80,000 pakistanis have died in this war of terror(since 2005)

 

and no before this war started we never had any problem with suicide bombers

 

we have suffered more then any1 and now people expect us to be friendly towards a country who caused all this chaos

 

Belief of such baffling ridiculousness is extreme in my eyes, though of a different level when compared to people with extremist religious views, naturally.

Belief in a God much less so.

But you don't have to be part of a religion to believe in a God, not that I personally do anyway, though I have nothing against people doing so.

 

you're anti religion but do you realize that u follow it too

 

 

"All body bags are equally tragic, whether americans killed by terrorists or terrorists killed by americans."

 

are the innocent people murdered by American and NATO troops in all these war zones terrorists

 

Pakistan now has explaining to do. We give them so much money and not only was Bin Laden in Pakistan but he was so close to a military base. I highly doubt that they had no idea what was going on or that he was there. I mean they were describing the base being close to that of a military standard fortress. Also we have given them so much money to help fight against terrorists.

 

1. we don't need to answer to any1

2. we can't fight terrorism we can help people stuck in this by educating them and helping them find themselves

 

isn't it amazing that most rebels have child soldiers fighting their war

Before I respond to the above, I'll just point out I made a few edits to my above post to make it clearer as I didn't read through before posting.

 

 

 

:lol: we Pakistani's do love scandals and conspiracy theories

and unlike you people we don't trust our government, army or any world media

i still think this was a way of America shutting us up

 

To suggest I trust my government is not true, though on this case I am willing to at least entertain their assertions until proven wrong by some clear evidence. I'm not the type to simply dispel something, or say it as fact without offering an explanation for it which is based on reason and logic, rather than childish outbursts.

 

we have suffered more then any1 and now people expect us to be friendly towards a country who caused all this chaos

 

No, I'm quite sure people just expect you (as in Pakistan, i don't expect you to personally go and hunt down these people) to do the right thing, especially when you offer such wise teachings on morality through some of the dogmas you follow.

 

you're anti religion but do you realize that u follow it too

 

Do continue, I fear you are misguided.

 

1. we don't need to answer to any1

2. we can't fight terrorism

 

1. If you have indeed not done enough to assist in the capture of bin Laden then yes you do, even if it is simply to clear your name.

2. Yes, you can, as a nation.

To suggest I trust my government is not true, though on this case I am willing to at least entertain their assertions until proven wrong by some clear evidence. I'm not the type to simply dispel something, or say it as fact without offering an explanation for it which is based on reason and logic, rather than childish outbursts.

 

so did you get any evidence

until i see a picture i won't believe they've killed him

 

 

No, I'm quite sure people just expect you (as in Pakistan, i don't expect you to personally go and hunt down these people) to do the right thing, especially when you offer such wise teachings on morality through some of the dogmas you follow.

 

you do realize our as in pakistani army not my own is fighting a war they know they won't win just to make the west happy

 

from last 6 years we as a nation have realized that terrorism and extremism has grown coz we made ppl choose sides

 

 

Do continue, I fear you are misguided.

 

religion is abt having a belief

i believe there is something who created us and you believe in no supreme power

so ironically you follow a religion

 

 

 

1. If you have indeed not done enough to assist in the capture of bin Laden then yes you do, even if it is simply to clear your name.

2. Yes, you can, as a nation.

 

no we don't need to and by the way the second we was as in the world

so did you get any evidence

until i see a picture i won't believe they've killed him

 

 

 

 

you do realize our as in pakistani army not my own is fighting a war they know they won't win just to make the west happy

 

from last 6 years we as a nation have realized that terrorism and extremism has grown coz we made ppl choose sides

 

 

 

 

religion is abt having a belief

i believe there is something who created us and you believe in no supreme power

so ironically you follow a religion

 

 

 

 

 

no we don't need to and by the way the second we was as in the world

 

I am waiting to be proved wrong. I am not saying it is certain that he is dead, but it certainly appears so. Until there is proof he is alive, or died in another way to what is being said, then how can you 'believe it is American's trying to shut up Pakistan'?

 

Extremism is not a new thing, it has simply moved away from certain areas and now it is becoming more apparent to you. That does not mean you pass the book and don't get involved. But as you said, you are making some efforts. It is a winnable war.

 

What I believe in is not a set of dogmas which tell me what to do, and also influence those around me in a specific way. I don't force it on other people, I do not have to offer myself to anybody, I just live my life. I believe in many things, like believe that chocolate is tasty, but that does not make it a religion. I think you should look up religion, and also humanism, and see how they differ.

 

Yes, we, or the world, can fight terrorism.