There are things in religion which are bizarre but the whole 72 virgins in paradise thing is probably the weirdest and most laughable of them all.

There are things in religion which are bizarre but the whole 72 virgins in paradise thing is probably the weirdest and most laughable of them all.

 

And why 72 virgins and not 75, 80 or 100?:confused:

Exquisite Rendition - when the canary sings under duress, it's often not the real tune. But when someone wants that tune to justify some action, it may be exactly what the torturer is seeking.. therein lies one of the problems. Not to mention an abandonment of due process and basic human rights, for which free nations should hold dear, as these are the higher principals upon which free nations are based. Once bad precedent is set, it's a slippery slope to degrade our protections against the whims of those who hold power.

Even the killing of Bin Laden is devoid of due process - while in all likelihood he may very well be guilty, dropping due process sets a very bad precedent, and a war on an amorphous criminal organization is ridiculous - taking on crime is the responsibility of international police cooperation, not a matter of state war. What we do unto others we do unto ourselves - which means a loss of freedom here, justifying war to fit any circumstances that those in power can spin it into, and giving excessive power to the executive branch (king elect under corporate controllership) is dangerous in tempting those in power to overreach their authority and further degrade our freedoms and our democratic republic's system of checks and balances.

As the maxim goes, "What you see in others is a reflection of how you behave and act", even Pooh Bear knows this!

I agree, poverty, inequity, and disrespect are the key issues driving people to the extreme acts they commit, and makes them easy converts to terror cults. To stop the fire, we must remove the tinder-dry fuel and open up the floodgates of opportunity and equality, then all citizens of the world will have the chance to flourish.

Just read about this guy on Twitter who, unknowing that it was an operation to kill bin Laden, tweeted from the event.

 

https://twitter.com/#!/ReallyVirtual/status/64780730286358528

I see what you're saying and I guess it is true that under duress they may give false info.

 

I guess just for me I see it sometimes as an option when information is needed and there seems to be no other outlet to get the information.

 

 

But I do agree 100% with your last part that poverty and what not are the key issues to the extreme acts. However it's easier said than done to open the floodgates to those people when they are already oppressed by either their government or small groups that control their area. Also with their way of life staying the same for song long, it makes things difficult too.

 

 

In the end I think it's a huge miscommunication between the various people of the world. I'm sure that a lot of people if they had the chance would know that most Americans are not evil or commit bad acts, but it's the government. If decisions were made by the people of this country, I'm sure that we'd be in nearly none of the conflicts we are in. I also think that if a lot of the people around the world were able to experience what it's like to live here or in other countries with a lot of freedoms they'd be much more likely to I guess want to change. It's always the many that suffer for the few.

I see what you're saying and I guess it is true that under duress they may give false info.

 

I guess just for me I see it sometimes as an option when information is needed and there seems to be no other outlet to get the information.

> That's the argument we're given, but most of the time it backfires, or is misused - hence, Cueball! :shifty::laugh3: Who provided such "excellent" information to justify the war in Iraq.. I think it's a gamble not worth taking - better to reason with the suspect who may have information, offer them something in return, treat them with respect, then better information is obtained.

 

But I do agree 100% with your last part that poverty and what not are the key issues to the extreme acts. However it's easier said than done to open the floodgates to those people when they are already oppressed by either their government or small groups that control their area. Also with their way of life staying the same for song long, it makes things difficult too.

> Yes, that is an issue as well - which makes a compelling argument to support citizens when they rise up and demand real democracy and rights, fairness in government, and checks and balances - like an independent judiciary, which the Egyptian people want. Come to think of it, we could use that here too!! :laugh3: Even so, working under imperfect conditions is better than not in my opinion, since then the citizens have open to them education and a window into a wider world, from which they can plan a brighter future for themselves - as the Egyptians and all Middle Eastern Citizens are now working towards. Oppression can only hold an iron grip so long, and there are ways to get assistance and opportunity to citizens even under bad conditions - it just takes a lot more planning and savvy. Holding out an olive branch is more effective when there are ripe olives on it.

 

In the end I think it's a huge miscommunication between the various people of the world. I'm sure that a lot of people if they had the chance would know that most Americans are not evil or commit bad acts, but it's the government. If decisions were made by the people of this country, I'm sure that we'd be in nearly none of the conflicts we are in. I also think that if a lot of the people around the world were able to experience what it's like to live here or in other countries with a lot of freedoms they'd be much more likely to I guess want to change. It's always the many that suffer for the few.

> Yes, that too - and here as well - people might come to see others just as they would view themselves or their neighbors, if given the opportunity. Unfortunately our government works for those who 'invest' heavily into it, hence the wealthy and insulated run the show from behind the scenes (the Koch's, Walton's, Gates', Buffets, Murdoch's and on and on). I pondered the problem we have of wresting control again of our own nation, which will free not just ourselves here, but also the oppressed citizens in Egypt, Bahrain, and elsewhere - for reigning in the power emanating here will ripple freedom throughout the globe. Yes, we the people need to be in charge here, then many of the current conflicts can be put to an end as well! And how true that is as well - we have more freedom than citizens do in places like Indonesia, Bahrain or Egypt (though that's changing with each passing day), such that if they could experience it (and they are trying their hearts out!) they would want more of it too. I suppose I take for granted the freedom I have, but then it's simply normal to enjoy what is already present.. and to be ever vigilant to maintain and improve our rights as citizens.

Where would these virgins come from anyway? Is it their hell to end up being the heaven for some random guy?

 

Presumably they are never ending virgins too, because otherwise that's only 72 fucks before your left with lame experienced sluts, considering they won't be married. 72 fucks to last eternity is not much of a prize if you ask me, if the whole virginity thing is the important thing to them. Unless it's just the fact that they won't have had sex with anybody else and they are yours forever and you know they will only be yours, forever. In which case, just exactly how inferior are women viewed, sounds close to ownership to me.

 

Not to mention most men will not die in their youth (if as you say that's the reward for everyone), and with organised marriages prevalent, not many women will reach mid-life without marrying unless there's some specific reason that they are not attracting a man, so you're likely to get a lot of old men with a lot of younger women, possibly very young, or older cast offs.

 

There are things in religion which are bizarre but the whole 72 virgins in paradise thing is probably the weirdest and most laughable of them all.

 

Indeed.

Well in terms of intelligence I agree. Especially with the whole Iraq War. To me it seems as though it was way too rushed. I think ESPECIALLY when it comes to war that all other options have to be used up and the intelligence has to be nearly perfect. As we've learned from the past the negative effects of war are too much. That's why I feel at least with Iran they are taking the right path in trying to use diplomacy and sanctions before going to war.

 

At the same time, to play devils advocate, what if there is a situation that requires a dire need of intelligence to prevent something from happening?

 

Or if just for arguments sake during WWII we were able to capture someone like Joseph Goebbels, or another high person of the Nazi party, what would you do?

 

I'm not saying it's something that should be used all the time or frequently, but perhaps in extreme scenarios it should be considered.

 

 

With your other points I agree. I think that It's much better to show support for the people trying to get their freedom rather than stepping in and acting. I think that has been a huge problem of ours is putting our noses into other peoples business and trying to tell them what to do or control who is in charge. Just let the people and nations decide for themselves. I think in the long run when push comes to shove people will or should be motivated enough to achieve their own free rights.

i say go for it... it'd be something interesting to discuss

 

You brought it up haha, you make it :p

I'm still catching up in the thread.

 

Exquisite Rendition - when the canary sings under duress, it's often not the real tune. But when someone wants that tune to justify some action, it may be exactly what the torturer is seeking.. therein lies one of the problems. Not to mention an abandonment of due process and basic human rights, for which free nations should hold dear, as these are the higher principals upon which free nations are based. Once bad precedent is set, it's a slippery slope to degrade our protections against the whims of those who hold power.

Even the killing of Bin Laden is devoid of due process - while in all likelihood he may very well be guilty, dropping due process sets a very bad precedent, and a war on an amorphous criminal organization is ridiculous - taking on crime is the responsibility of international police cooperation, not a matter of state war. What we do unto others we do unto ourselves - which means a loss of freedom here, justifying war to fit any circumstances that those in power can spin it into, and giving excessive power to the executive branch (king elect under corporate controllership) is dangerous in tempting those in power to overreach their authority and further degrade our freedoms and our democratic republic's system of checks and balances.

As the maxim goes, "What you see in others is a reflection of how you behave and act", even Pooh Bear knows this!

I agree, poverty, inequity, and disrespect are the key issues driving people to the extreme acts they commit, and makes them easy converts to terror cults. To stop the fire, we must remove the tinder-dry fuel and open up the floodgates of opportunity and equality, then all citizens of the world will have the chance to flourish.

 

Some very interesting points. From the non state of war, which was something I questioned in the first or second page, to it being an international police matter. They'll get away with it, but it's interesting to see exactly what laws they break haha.

haha alright... so should i make it in this area of the forum or in the lounge?

 

Or if just for arguments sake during WWII we were able to capture someone like Joseph Goebbels, or another high person of the Nazi party, what would you do?

 

We have no idea if that was tried and simply failed. As I said earlier, there will be so many examples of that torture being used and it not being useful but they simply wouldn't release that information, and why would they?

haha alright... so should i make it in this area of the forum or in the lounge?

 

This area. Keep the riff raff out haha.

I agree that the extreme circumstances line is hard to draw, and it's tempting to see it used, but for me I'd say no. Then on the other hand I'm not in charge and I'm not passionate enough to actively protest against its use in this incident, for example.

We have no idea if that was tried and simply failed. As I said earlier, there will be so many examples of that torture being used and it not being useful but they simply wouldn't release that information, and why would they?

that is true. The government wouldn't want to show it's faults.

This area. Keep the riff raff out haha.

haha alright... done.

I agree that the extreme circumstances line is hard to draw, and it's tempting to see it used, but for me I'd say no. Then on the other hand I'm not in charge and I'm not passionate enough to actively protest against its use in this incident, for example.

 

Yeah. I mean overall I don't think it's something that should be done on a regular basis. There should be other ways of obtaining information. But I think when there are points in time that there is an imminent threat, I feel it should at least be considered. However I think that there has to be no doubts that the person being interrogated is innocent.

I was in Washington D.C. when all this happened. Yesterday, (Monday), we played on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial, and because of this whole thing they brought in this giant armored Hummer thingy. Quite scary, actually. :|

 

And every few minutes a military helicopter would fly over us.

I was in Washington D.C. when all this happened. Yesterday, (Monday), we played on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial, and because of this whole thing they brought in this giant armored Hummer thingy. Quite scary, actually. :|

 

And every few minutes a military helicopter would fly over us.

 

Yeah, I'd have been freaked out.

I just can't imagining that happening in England.

My mom said that they made a threat to bomb the border :sad: My dad works in the U.S and if we can't cross over there he won't be able to go to his job and... we'll live on the streets :bigcry:

What kind of fucked up religion promises that? I presume most will have been through a loving marriage, with a family, and then they get to fuck around at the end. Surely that's wrong? What a lovely thought for a wife to have as she dies.

 

i think its same for women too:confused:

i know as much as you do, but i believe in my religion so i won't say anything else...

 

 

 

I agree with this, whole heartedly. You sort out the problems and then people don't need to rebel. But as it stands there are problems, and it's a long process, so the world as a whole needs to pull together to help those in need and the richer nations should support others and prevent these things from happening, whilst also in the meantime cutting down on these attacks and not bowing to their pressure and appeasing them in order to prevent future retaliation. I'm a firm believer of no negotiation with terrorists, as in the long term, when they see that there is no compromise, there is greater fear within them. A fear which the extremists deserve in my eyes.

 

I do believe also, that more could be done to support the less fortunate nations, and I'm disgusted with how many of the richer nations aren't helping enough.

 

the governments are never going to help eachother we the the masses have to cooperate and find a solution.

 

we have to realize that armies need wars to get money from their people and we the masses just become collateral damage

 

 

 

I see the whole 72 virgin thing as just a way to sexually repress people. I mean think about it... if you were to be rewarded that amount of virgins in heaven, as cynical or fucked up as it sounds wouldn't it push you to want to get there faster?

 

Like I saw this the other day and it was funny I thought, but also interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReNIc1K76nM

 

you do realize that suicide is forbidden in Islam

i think its same for women too:confused:

i know as much as you do, but i believe in my religion so i won't say anything else...

 

A very odd thing to say, but I won't pursue and simply request that you use your own time to consider these things and why they are in place, and if without them you would not be a good person. If I was to guess I'd say the answers to these wouldn't matter to you as the lure of heaven and the fear of hell is the main reason for your co-operation with the religion, combined with it being a social norm.

 

Anyway, I don't think what I say is gonna change your mind, and as an individual you seem like a good person, so you can wrestle with the dogmas you follow without me berating you.

 

the governments are never going to help eachother we the the masses have to cooperate and find a solution.

 

we have to realize that armies need wars to get money from their people and we the masses just become collateral damage

 

It isn't quite as simple as that, but it's a point. There are unpopular wars, and elections are lost on them. Also, not all wars are money-making, certainly not to a huge extent. And with this one in particular, I can see why they did it.

 

How do we find a solution?

A very odd thing to say, but I won't pursue and simply request that you use your own time to consider these things and why they are in place, and if without them you would not be a good person. If I was to guess I'd say the answers to these wouldn't matter to you as the lure of heaven and the fear of hell is the main reason for your co-operation with the religion, combined with it being a social norm.

 

Anyway, I don't think what I say is gonna change your mind, and as an individual you seem like a good person, so you can wrestle with the dogmas you follow without me berating you.

 

 

 

It isn't quite as simple as that, but it's a point. There are unpopular wars, and elections are lost on them. Also, not all wars are money-making, certainly not to a huge extent. And with this one in particular, I can see why they did it.

 

How do we find a solution?

 

sadly im learning more about my religion now

i learned being a muslim from a rock band so that doesn't count and i've just started reading the Quran about 7 months back.

 

and i believe in all Abrahamic religions heaven is wht one wants it and so men only talking about all the virgins they'll get there

 

by the way in islam the most important thing are the right of people/animals

 

and we as muslims even have to follow a few rules in war and pearce

 

amazingly enough we can't cut trees or kill animals when in war...

 

and as for solving this problem stop being racist

by the way in islam the most important thing are the right of people/animals

 

and we as muslims even have to follow a few rules in war and pearce

 

amazingly enough we can't cut trees or kill animals when in war...

 

and as for solving this problem stop being racist

 

All I would say to this is that these things are outside of Islam as well.

 

And racism needs to be tackled, but stopping it is a long term goal and easier said than done.

its the same in humanism i know

most of the ppl here in this part of the world converted because of sufi saints and they preached humanism more then anything else

 

media can help....

Not intending to offend anyone but this has to be posted:

 

^:lol:

 

 

Also I had a discussion with my parents today about Bin Ladens death and the reaction. I feel that although it's good to not live in a world with him that the reaction by people in Washington and NYC was a bit too much. I mean to me it looked like a frat party or like a superbowl celebration. I was honestly ashamed to see people acting the way they were. I could understand why people would be happy, but to act so immaturely? Regardless of who has died, the death of a human should not be celebrated in that fashion unless it's honoring their life. For me it was more of the principal behind it.

 

It's like say that a family member of yours was killed and you went to see the execution of the person. I'm sure that you wouldn't start jumping up and down.

 

I just feel that if America wants to seem sophisticated, that doing something like that isn't the way to do it. I feel it would give off a really bad impression and in fact influence more people to do bad things by seeing our reaction and being angered, much how right after 9/11 people (including myself) was angered to see people celebrating what happened.

 

 

What is everyone elses thoughts on the reaction of his death by Americans as seen in DC and NYC?

^ I agree, we set a bad example when we celebrate someone's death, no matter how glad we might be that this person is gone - it is immature, and sends a message of disrespect around the world.

> I think the right thing we should have done was to first try and apprehend Osama, his associates, and obtain witnesses. There needed to be a normal trial, preserving the rule of law and upholding our highest principles of equal justice for all, not lowering ourselves to the level of frontier gunmen with no respect for the rule of law. We did this with the Nazis war leaders, with the Balkan war leaders, and played a role in getting other accused leaders to trial; this execution sets a bad precedent, and defiles our highest principles.