A Godless Universe

[Prince Myshkin]

So the other day I was thinking about whether there definitely has to be a God in the universe. I have strong atheistic leanings though would never outrightly describe myself as an atheist (currently). I am however anti-theistic (as some posters will be aware due to my criticism of all religions on the board).

 

Anyway, in my thinking I came across something I'd not considered before. I'm positive it is not any form of new thinking, but it is for me and so I figured I'd share with the board. I expect some other posters will have come to this hypothesis as a natural conclusion to considering the idea of a Godless universe, so please don't think I've made the thread to show off.

 

My thoughts were that if it is possible for a God to exist without any creator and then go on to create the universe in all its wonder and complexities, then surely it would also be possible for the universe to exist without a creator. After all, one would imagine this God to be far more complex and magnificent than the universe itself and so the likeliness of God to be created from nothing would seem more far fetched than the universe itself being created from nothing.

 

I've (obviously) often asked the big question 'if God made the world who made God', but I'd never tweaked my thinking slightly on that matter and developed that questioning towards the universe itself, other than trying to get my head around the scientific theories behind the big bang etc.

 

Feel free to discuss.

 

Also, should likeliness be discussed if we are dealing with such extreme circumstances in the first place? I find it's important to note that this does not say that God definitely doesn't exist. I view that as impossible to prove (just like I view proving a God as impossible), but I do see this as an easy to understand hypothesis of how a Godless universe could exist. I'm surprised it's not discussed more often from this frame of thinking, or maybe it is and I'm a moron.

[Reilly]

A creationist would tell you that God exists outside of our realm and constrictions of time, and that God created the world 'in the beginning', and they genuinely believe that 'the beginning' counts as the beginning of our existence, not God. He created the idea of time, there are references of his intentions 'before time began', he is apparently an eternal being that does not need to have a creator, because- well I have no fucking idea, I've looked for reasons in the past, but the official rather convenient interpretation of mental creationists is that an eternal being does not necessitate a creator, they simply exist (ikr?!).

 

There's nothing uncommon about your thought but also I would say its rare to bring it up. I think it's a question that is in the background or subconscious of anyone who thinks critically about the basic ideas of religion, and I don't think we realise it but it's a very simple and concise question that really explains why we think about this and arguments against a God existing.

 

This question though (As you probably know) is just mirrored for theists and nontheists, what existed before the big bang? The same explanation, time practically didn't exist, the idea of time depends on the pressure of the mass or space in an existence, and when mass is immeasurable such as in a subatomic particle, existence doesn't, uh, exist (To me that's a crazy explanation, anything is measurable to a degree of some sort), so practically it's the same answer for both opposing questions. As always with a theist if we have no proof God didn't exist then it is their right to believe he does, so the question only relates to agnostic rather then atheist beliefs (But I think you did mention you're agnostic somewhere there).

 

Bit of a pickle innit?

[Nikola]

I live in para-para-paradise.

God is pretty cool guy. Eh kills Coldplay haters and doesnt afraid of anything. ;)

 

But seriously, this question will never be answered.

Unless God him/herself comes and answers it.

But from what we now know, people created God, not the other way around. ;)

[Reilly]

I sometimes feel like making threads about this, and I probably used to, but when you get a response like ^THAT I remember why I don't bother.

 

EDIT: He just edited to make some form of a contribution.

[Prince Myshkin]

A creationist would tell you that God exists outside of our realm and constrictions of time, and that God created the world 'in the beginning', and they genuinely believe that 'the beginning' counts as the beginning of our existence, not God. He created the idea of time, there are references of his intentions 'before time began', he is apparently an eternal being that does not need to have a creator, because- well I have no fucking idea, I've looked for reasons in the past, but the official rather convenient interpretation of mental creationists is that an eternal being does not necessitate a creator, they simply exist (ikr?!).

 

There's nothing uncommon about your thought but also I would say its rare to bring it up. I think it's a question that is in the background or subconscious of anyone who thinks critically about the basic ideas of religion, and I don't think we realise it but it's a very simple and concise question that really explains why we think about this and arguments against a God existing.

 

This question though (As you probably know) is just mirrored for theists and nontheists, what existed before the big bang? The same explanation, time practically didn't exist, the idea of time depends on the pressure of the mass or space in an existence, and when mass is immeasurable such as in a subatomic particle, existence doesn't, uh, exist (To me that's a crazy explanation, anything is measurable to a degree of some sort), so practically it's the same answer for both opposing questions. As always with a theist if we have no proof God didn't exist then it is their right to believe he does, so the question only relates to agnostic rather then atheist beliefs (But I think you did mention you're agnostic somewhere there).

 

Bit of a pickle innit?

 

Sure is. Thanks for the contribution too. Though provoking/fucking stuff.

More so than the new Coldplay album.

[Prince Myshkin]

Incidentally just because a question is perceived as unanswerable it does not mean that it should not be explored. There's is so much else to gain in other areas by looking into it.

 

Edit: I find a God with gender hard to fathom.

[Nikola]

Incidentally just because a question is perceived as unanswerable it does not mean that it should not be explored. There's is so much else to gain in other areas by looking into it.

 

Edit: I find a God with gender hard to fathom.

 

Well, we just have to a priori agree that it is an unanswerable question.

As for its "gender" I don't imagine God as an old man with a long white beard.

I've kinda stopped believing in God from a religious point of view.

 

But I believe that if all the science of this world manages to completely explain the Big Bang, it will never be able to answer the two crucial questions:

What existed before it?

and

Why does the Universe exist? More importantly, why do we exist, a.k.a. what is the meaning of life.

Even though I'm going to be a doctor, I don't believe that life is just a game of molecules and that love is just a chemical reaction.

There is more to it. (Soul, God...?)

[Megalomania]

My thoughts were that if it is possible for a God to exist without any creator and then go on to create the universe in all its wonder and complexities, then surely it would also be possible for the universe to exist without a creator. After all, one would imagine this God to be far more complex and magnificent than the universe itself and so the likeliness of God to be created from nothing would seem more far fetched than the universe itself being created from nothing.

 

But isn't that kind of a circular argument? By saying that, you're basing your thoughts on why you think there isn't a God on the fact that there is a God. :thinking:

 

 

 

Personally, I believe in a divine being. I am a member of a Christian church, but that being said I'm not one of particularly strong faith........I figure that no matter who God is, nothing bad ever comes out of striving to be the best person I am, so that's what I do.

 

If that makes any sense. :|

[Prince Myshkin]

But isn't that kind of a circular argument? By saying that, you're basing your thoughts on why you think there isn't a God on the fact that there is a God. :thinking:

 

 

 

Personally, I believe in a divine being. I am a member of a Christian church, but that being said I'm not one of particularly strong faith........I figure that no matter who God is, nothing bad ever comes out of striving to be the best person I am, so that's what I do.

 

If that makes any sense. :|

 

No, I'm saying that if it is possible for there to be a God in this universe who created it then it is possible for there not to be a God in this universe. Whether you would classify something coming from nothing as 'God' is another matter, but I'm referring to a conscious God who is acting on something, rather than developing through sheer chance.

 

And there is nothing wrong with being a good person, of course. I'd have to discuss in a different thread about religion and how people don't need it to be good yet it has so many detrimental affects on our planet and human societies etc, not here.

[Prince Myshkin]

Well, we just have to a priori agree that it is an unanswerable question.

As for its "gender" I don't imagine God as an old man with a long white beard.

I've kinda stopped believing in God from a religious point of view.

 

But I believe that if all the science of this world manages to completely explain the Big Bang, it will never be able to answer the two crucial questions:

What existed before it?

and

Why does the Universe exist? More importantly, why do we exist, a.k.a. what is the meaning of life.

Even though I'm going to be a doctor, I don't believe that life is just a game of molecules and that love is just a chemical reaction.

There is more to it. (Soul, God...?)

 

I agree that I cannot see these things being discovered.

[Reilly]

No, I'm saying that if it is possible for there to be a God in this universe who created it then it is possible for there not to be a God in this universe. Whether you would classify something coming from nothing as 'God' is another matter, but I'm referring to a conscious God who is acting on something, rather than developing through sheer chance.

 

I thought she was relating to how you mentioned the hypothetical situation of a God existing, and how incredibly difficult a God would be to create, in comparison with the universe being created which all nontheists pretty much don't find incredible at all, just an occurence, what's happened since then to come to the evolution of humans is a remarkably vast series of coincidences without which we would not exist, but still just occurences.

 

So you're basing the idea of how it's even more unlikely for a God to be created then the universe, on the basis of how difficult it would be presumably to create a God. I get that it's hypothetical but I can see both sides. I thought the same as Christina but didn't want to dis-agree with a nontheist because I'm totally biased and anyway I didn't think it stood out as a major part of your post.

 

Sorry to butt in (ACTUALLY NOT SORRY I LOVE IT)

[Prince Myshkin]

I thought she was relating to how you mentioned the hypothetical situation of a God existing, and how incredibly difficult a God would be to create, in comparison with the universe being created which all nontheists pretty much don't find incredible at all, just an occurence, what's happened since then to come to the evolution of humans is a remarkably vast series of coincidences without which we would not exist, but still just occurences.

 

So you're basing the idea of how it's even more unlikely for a God to be created then the universe, on the basis of how difficult it would be presumably to create a God. I get that it's hypothetical but I can see both sides. I thought the same as Christina but didn't want to dis-agree with a nontheist because I'm totally biased and anyway I didn't think it stood out as a major part of your post.

 

Sorry to butt in (ACTUALLY NOT SORRY I LOVE IT)

 

Ah yes, this is why I put in the bit about questioning the point of discussing likelihood in this, as we are leaving everything open to possibility. It wouldn't matter which was more likely, as long as something was remotely likely.

[Megalomania]

No, I'm saying that if it is possible for there to be a God in this universe who created it then it is possible for there not to be a God in this universe. Whether you would classify something coming from nothing as 'God' is another matter, but I'm referring to a conscious God who is acting on something, rather than developing through sheer chance.

 

And there is nothing wrong with being a good person, of course. I'd have to discuss in a different thread about religion and how people don't need it to be good yet it has so many detrimental affects on our planet and human societies etc, not here.

 

I never got around to my final point (LIKE A BOSS), basically to me it doesn't really matter who or what is "God", or how he/she/it got there, or the beginning of the universe and whatnot because any of the knowledge won't really help me in life.

 

 

 

 

I thought she was relating to how you mentioned the hypothetical situation of a God existing, and how incredibly difficult a God would be to create, in comparison with the universe being created which all nontheists pretty much don't find incredible at all, just an occurence, what's happened since then to come to the evolution of humans is a remarkably vast series of coincidences without which we would not exist, but still just occurences.

 

So you're basing the idea of how it's even more unlikely for a God to be created then the universe, on the basis of how difficult it would be presumably to create a God. I get that it's hypothetical but I can see both sides. I thought the same as Christina but didn't want to dis-agree with a nontheist because I'm totally biased and anyway I didn't think it stood out as a major part of your post.

 

Sorry to butt in (ACTUALLY NOT SORRY I LOVE IT)

 

Yes this is what I meant, thanks Reilly. :P

[86Timewarp]

I'm a man of science so I tend to stay away from religion as best I could but....

 

Being the fact I believe in ghosts, spirits, and supernatural forces we cannot control, there might be a god. Now I'm not saying there isn't one or is one, I'm saying it's possible.

 

Maybe all the gods from each religion live together to balance everything in a different dimension, maybe they live amung us but we just cant see him/her; it's a possibility.

 

As for a "Godless" universe, there would be no religion, and I kinda hate to say it, but without religion there wouldn't be as much knowledge as there is now because literacy (writing and math) basically stemed from it :confused:

[Reilly]

As for a "Godless" universe, there would be no religion, and I kinda hate to say it, but without religion there wouldn't be as much knowledge as there is now because literacy (writing and math) basically stemed from it :confused:

 

That is an incredible claim, for example theres over 2,000 years difference between writing/symbols originating independently in China then in Egypt, also the pre-writing period (The long, drawn out development of symbols turning into letters which inevitably were given specific meaning which were un-related visually to the message it was conveying) which took 2,000 years to develop in Egypt or Mesoamerica for example, writings did contain often contain information on Pharoahs or religion, but of course included various other topics. For example one of the first writings discovered was the Mayan script, which included information on the rulings of the king at the time, which is essentially like reporting a governmental system not always existing purely to follow rules of religion (Which were often intertwined I will admit).

 

And maths is even harder to trace back to any one factor, I don't know where to start with that because nobody has a clue for example when different amounts of goods were considered by value in exchange by the amount of other goods for another value.

 

So I'm interested to know. If you mean religion has speeded up the process, I mean I guess, but as I've mentioned religion and its rules have just replaced other rules that could be otherwise decided by area, background, politics, etc.

[chuck kottke]

I can't believe in a Dogless universe, it's just not possible. :sunny: I believe Dog does exist, I've seen Dog, and even heard Dog! All that matters is that Dog loves you. :huskyhug:

 

 

 

Suffice it to say that were we to realize the truth, it might be too much for anyone to handle , for it is a very, very large elephant, and each of us can only comprehend one aspect of it at a time.:elephant:

Musings on the matter: The Universe and God and Us are all one, a giant interacting set of strings and bubbles, all the forces and all the actions part of the most complex set of dynamic interacting dimensions, yet coordinated and interconnected, driven perhaps by an ever increasing process yet to be fully understood, perhaps related to increasing orders of systems, or the osmotic pressure of the universe towards complete and uniform randomness of all possible permutations; this mystery still remains unsolved, for not all of the equations add up yet.. And if we are to solve it, we must keep ourselves healthy both socially and individually, allotting time for dreaming as well as working. Sometimes though, the Universe is too much, and we aspire to more humble modes, preferring time in a decidedly peppery place, away from the blue expanse of this Universe. For the musical verse is often more pleasing to the ear than the verse of everything.

[86Timewarp]

That is an incredible claim, for example theres over 2,000 years difference between writing/symbols originating independently in China then in Egypt, also the pre-writing period (The long, drawn out development of symbols turning into letters which inevitably were given specific meaning which were un-related visually to the message it was conveying) which took 2,000 years to develop in Egypt or Mesoamerica for example, writings did contain often contain information on Pharoahs or religion, but of course included various other topics. For example one of the first writings discovered was the Mayan script, which included information on the rulings of the king at the time, which is essentially like reporting a governmental system not always existing purely to follow rules of religion (Which were often intertwined I will admit).

 

And maths is even harder to trace back to any one factor, I don't know where to start with that because nobody has a clue for example when different amounts of goods were considered by value in exchange by the amount of other goods for another value.

 

So I'm interested to know. If you mean religion has speeded up the process, I mean I guess, but as I've mentioned religion and its rules have just replaced other rules that could be otherwise decided by area, background, politics, etc.

 

Oh no, I was refering to the fact that back in the 1700's many Englishmen knew how to read and write because they had to read the Bible, I didnt mean it that far woops....

[fooby]

I don't think I'll ever be able to see god as anything more than an excuse for things we don't understand. 1000 years ago when we didn't know about weather fronts, we assumed it was god, now we understand them, we don't. Get my point?

[Wyrd]

I find it very brave of you Braddoc to start a topic like this :thumbsup:

 

I think why people don't discuss topics like this more often is because it is very sensitive for a lot of people and often such topics just turn into a fight. (Mark isn't here anymore, so the chance is smaller than before :P)

As for a "Godless" universe, there would be no religion, and I kinda hate to say it, but without religion there wouldn't be as much knowledge as there is now because literacy (writing and math) basically stemed from it :confused:

This is a really weird way of reasoning to me. You are basically saying that religion only exists because God exists? But why? It doesn't matter if God exists or not, it matters for religion to exist only whether people believe there is a God. So I think religion can still exist if there's no God.

Also, you can't say there wouldn't be as much literacy in a world where no one would believe in a God, because you can't compare this world with that hypothetical one, because it has never been there. We can only speculate about this. Like you say about the 1700's; Maybe if in an alternative universe there was no Bible there would have been another book that everyone needed to be able to read.

[Italian Plastic]

It doesn't matter if God exists or not, it matters for religion to exist only whether people believe there is a God. So I think religion can still exist if there's no God.

 

I think he's saying that religion (and it's effects on society) would be extremely different if there was no god

[Prince Myshkin]

I can't believe in a Dogless universe, it's just not possible. :sunny: I believe Dog does exist, I've seen Dog, and even heard Dog! All that matters is that Dog loves you. :huskyhug:

 

 

 

Suffice it to say that were we to realize the truth, it might be too much for anyone to handle , for it is a very, very large elephant, and each of us can only comprehend one aspect of it at a time.:elephant:

Musings on the matter: The Universe and God and Us are all one, a giant interacting set of strings and bubbles, all the forces and all the actions part of the most complex set of dynamic interacting dimensions, yet coordinated and interconnected, driven perhaps by an ever increasing process yet to be fully understood, perhaps related to increasing orders of systems, or the osmotic pressure of the universe towards complete and uniform randomness of all possible permutations; this mystery still remains unsolved, for not all of the equations add up yet.. And if we are to solve it, we must keep ourselves healthy both socially and individually, allotting time for dreaming as well as working. Sometimes though, the Universe is too much, and we aspire to more humble modes, preferring time in a decidedly peppery place, away from the blue expanse of this Universe. For the musical verse is often more pleasing to the ear than the verse of everything.

 

I like this.

 

I do often think that we see ourselves as aliens trying to master the planet and maybe some day the universe, when in fact we are ourselves the universe and it is deep within us. When people lose grasp of this and concentrate their very being on illusionary ideals then that is when they leave themselves susceptible to unhappiness and in turn have the potential to spread that unhappiness to a large amount of others.

 

That is not a call for people to live purely as a part of the universe and completely ignore more materialistic concepts, it's simply me hoping that people will focus on more fulfilling ventures both towards themselves and the human race as a whole and at the same time embrace some of societies materialistic quirks if they wish.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm enjoying reading different peoples replies on this thread. What people have understood my thread to be getting at, their views on the universe and their views on religion, society and God(s).

 

Just to clarify the thread was not me saying 'There is definitely no God' or 'Why believe in God?', but instead to attempt to provide a hypothetical situation in which a Godless universe could exist whilst also directly responding to the claim that the universe is proof of God's existence used by some people. I'm leaning much more towards the religious perceptions of a God admittedly i.e creator and conscious divinity.

 

 

 

 

The reason I made this thread was to further develop the theory on the matter as (as you can see) I did not explain myself too clearly in my original ramblings and I have yet to incorporate all angles into it. Your contributions will develop my understanding of the theory though, so thank you.

[Prince Myshkin]

I think he's saying that religion (and it's effects on society) would be extremely different if there was no god

 

Religion has given us plenty, though it has taken away a great deal too. It's unquantifiable to work out how much the affect has been in contrast to a total absence of religion.

 

Certain areas of art and architecture have thrived under religion.

[Prince Myshkin]

I find it very brave of you Braddoc to start a topic like this :thumbsup:

 

I think why people don't discuss topics like this more often is because it is very sensitive for a lot of people and often such topics just turn into a fight. (Mark isn't here anymore, so the chance is smaller than before :P)

 

Thanks :)

 

Well I'm keen for the thread to develop and branch out but I'm wary of it just turning into a thread picking holes in things. I hope it becomes a thread of developing peoples theories instead, though there are several posts within the thread so far which have interested me greatly which I could add very little to due to my own lack of intelligence in the area of discussion.

[Prince Myshkin]

I never got around to my final point (LIKE A BOSS), basically to me it doesn't really matter who or what is "God", or how he/she/it got there, or the beginning of the universe and whatnot because any of the knowledge won't really help me in life.

 

Fair enough, though that's not what the thread intended to question.

I personally find such musings to be very important to my creative thinking when taking into other aspects within my life such as rational and logical thinking.

[86Timewarp]

I find it very brave of you Braddoc to start a topic like this :thumbsup:

 

I think why people don't discuss topics like this more often is because it is very sensitive for a lot of people and often such topics just turn into a fight. (Mark isn't here anymore, so the chance is smaller than before :P)

This is a really weird way of reasoning to me. You are basically saying that religion only exists because God exists? But why? It doesn't matter if God exists or not, it matters for religion to exist only whether people believe there is a God. So I think religion can still exist if there's no God.

Also, you can't say there wouldn't be as much literacy in a world where no one would believe in a God, because you can't compare this world with that hypothetical one, because it has never been there. We can only speculate about this. Like you say about the 1700's; Maybe if in an alternative universe there was no Bible there would have been another book that everyone needed to be able to read.

 

I ment what Italian Plastic was saying. The reason why I say religion had a great impact in literacy was because noble educated men had to learn to read because of the bible. Almost everyone was a die-hard religious person so thats where I'm saying knowledge would be impacted

 

I think he's saying that religion (and it's effects on society) would be extremely different if there was no god

 

:nod: