Homophobia exists because of uneducated people basing their arguments on social norms and outdated religious texts (the word of a perfect God written through corruptible man) and authority figures following religious beliefs rather than how their legal systems operate.

Wow, thank you Imke that was a very interesting post! :wacko:

I'd like to thank you guys who contribute to this thread and this debate, it is very interesting to me, as I get to learn more about my religion and the Bible, which is something I rarely get the opportunity of.

This interpretation of Paul's sayings makes much more sense to me than what Levicitus said, or other interpretations of what Paul said. It's a shame that the Church hasn't seemed to see it that way. Some bad people have clearly used wrong interpretations and translations of the Bible, and well, the religion in general, as a way of imposing their own view of society. It is the main reason why I'm quite distant with the Church.

I feel better now as a Christian and someone who supports same-sex marriage. :wacko:

It's interesting to see how other people interpret the bible as well. Quite interesting...

Wow, thank you Imke that was a very interesting post! :wacko:

I'd like to thank you guys who contribute to this thread and this debate, it is very interesting to me, as I get to learn more about my religion and the Bible, which is something I rarely get the opportunity of.

This interpretation of Paul's sayings makes much more sense to me than what Levicitus said, or other interpretations of what Paul said. It's a shame that the Church hasn't seemed to see it that way. Some bad people have clearly used wrong interpretations and translations of the Bible, and well, the religion in general, as a way of imposing their own view of society. It is the main reason why I'm quite distant with the Church.

I feel better now as a Christian and someone who supports same-sex marriage. :wacko:

 

You're welcome. :nice: I think it's important for everyone who has faith to go into such depth an discover what there is apart from the scripture.

 

It's interesting to see how other people interpret the bible as well. Quite interesting...

 

Well, when it comes to Paul and the condemnation of sexual acts it is not just interpretation. He was talking about idolatry in Pagan temples therefore it cannot be applied to homosexuality as it is today and absolutely should not.

 

Interpretation surely is a choice, sexuality is an inborn quality though. That's why I just want to urge you to think twice before you put someone down and label their relationships an abomination because of your choice of interpreting Bible passages.

... I might not think it's right for anyone to be gay...

 

What does that even mean?

Well, as a Christian, I believe God created man and he then created the woman for the the man. He did not create 2 men or 2 woman, but 1 man and 1 woman. He intended men to marry women, or he would have made everyone the same. So, in being homosexual, you are going agaisnt what God intended. And it also says things throughout the Bible about it being wrong. I don't know, but have I seemed "homophobic" or "intolerant" to you guys? I'm wondering, because the vast majority of people I know have the same opinion as me, and are about as "homophobic" as I am. I can be around you, I can be friends with you, but I will not pretend to think it's right or support it.

 

Well, if that explains my views a bit better.

 

So homosexuality is what then? It either happens naturally or it doesn't happen.

 

If it happens (as it does in nature) and no harm is being done (since it isn't a choice so can't affect or be acquired by others) then is God screwing up?

 

And if it is a choice (which it isn't), then still, what's the problem? It will sure as hell alleviate the population problem. The choice only seems to be a problem for the people who haven't 'chosen' to be a homosexual themselves, and therefore not really a problem.

 

Your other problem is the fact that the Christian religion (at least) didn't accept marriage for a long time and it started out as a civil procedure which the church jumped on when they saw that they could make money from it. I would recommend you research the history of marriage and religions role in it.

People can also be very insulting and "intolerant" and hurtful towards people who share my views, as well...

 

EDIT: of coarse that doesn't justify beating someone up. But I just want you guys to know, true Christians would never insult or abuse a homosexual, but they often get labled as "homophobes" or "intolerant", just because they don't agree with it, an often get awful insults and treatment from others.

 

True to an extent, as many Christians are not homophobic and there are plenty of things in the Bible which can be used to say that nobody can be harmed. On the other hand you can use the Bible to say most things and it is generally hostile to homosexuals and women across the board. The fact you have already said you think women were made for men concerns me greatly.

What annoys me most is that religion still has so much influence on our government when most of our country would probably say they weren't religious at all and would want equality.

 

Indeed, David Cameron described Britain as a Christian nation, when only something like 53% of the people specifically refer to themselves as this in later life. That's close to saying this is a female nation.

It's interesting to see how other people interpret the bible as well. Quite interesting...

 

OK, I caught up with the thread. I would suggest you take a position of scepticism with regards to some of your strongly held beliefs. You do not need to throw down your religion at all as you likely draw great strength from it and it can be very useful to you, and of course you may come to the conclusion that the things you posted at the start of the thread are still true, even after this thread stops getting bumped. If that's the case, that's the case. But if you are considering going to somebody wiser and asking them advice on things that the Bible says and the beliefs that you have inherited, then I suggest you speak to many people or surround yourself with as much information as possible. Without this it will be difficult for you to make an informed decision on what to believe and hold close to you. You need to see all sides of the debate, both the religious position, that of the sceptics, that of the atheist, that of many different religions throughout the world and indeed history.

 

One thing I would suggest you watch a few videos by is this guy on YouTube. It's quite easy to follow and he has videos covering a wide range of topics. I'm not telling you that you have to believe in what he says and the conclusions he grows, but I think you should watch and consider them. Then I recommend you speak to others, from different sides of the argument.

 

John Stuart Mill had it right when he suggested that no belief should be suppressed but instead should be open to discussion, debate and can then either evolve our current perception of the truth, or indeed sharpen it.

 

Until you have fully researched the area, however, I would be a little less confident in holding certain beliefs as absolute truths as the impact of this can be very serious to the well being of others, be it regarding sexuality, gender, race or creed.

 

Anyway, here he is. I hope this helps to a certain extent and leads to you looking into things more thoroughly:

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/QualiaSoup

 

 

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQBDGMj2h-c&list=PL85F1EE32A438AEB8&index=11&feature=plpp_video]In the beginning, God created injustice - YouTube[/ame]

I think if people want to marry someone of the same sex, let them. Why should we dictate who they are allowed to love? It's immoral to tell people what is wrong love and what is right love. IMO.

Well, as a Christian, I believe God created man and he then created the woman for the the man. He did not create 2 men or 2 woman, but 1 man and 1 woman. He intended men to marry women, or he would have made everyone the same. So, in being homosexual, you are going agaisnt what God intended. And it also says things throughout the Bible about it being wrong. I don't know, but have I seemed "homophobic" or "intolerant" to you guys? I'm wondering, because the vast majority of people I know have the same opinion as me, and are about as "homophobic" as I am. I can be around you, I can be friends with you, but I will not pretend to think it's right or support it.

 

Well, if that explains my views a bit better.

 

If you are a Christian, you believe that God intended us to look after each other, but yet we still have meaningless wars being fought with innocent people trapped in the middle. There are children starving in the world and we can all do our bit to help, but most of us don't; the same goes for animals that are dumped at roadsides, global warming or deforestation.

 

There are lots of things that God intended for the world, but homosexuality is massively unimportant in the grand scheme in things.

Back to the topic, I feel homophobia (and prejudice generally) stems from a combination of fear of the unknown, a lack of empathy and a lack of exposure to different people (all of which goes hand in hand really). These things are perpetuated by several factors such as a lack of education, vested interests of people who can make money or power out of people influencing them by continuing these stereotypes, people who are not comfortable in their own opinions and so need to strengthen them by disparaging others and inherited wisdom on the topic which sets up things like homosexuality as a taboo subject (especially considering this specifically covers not only a minority group but also what understandably to many is a very controversial subject - sex).

 

Such is the way that the media (not all) and society (not all) is set up, it appears that difference is not in itself celebrated and a lot of focus goes into looking at these differences as a problem. Providing these differences don't harm others physically or mentally then of course it is fine. But too often you can see in things like marketing that we should all want this product and then we can ultimately be happy. Or you have newspapers targeting certain types of people and singling them out as a problem to society, whether it is people of a certain nationality 'taking our jobs' or members of society without a job 'stealing from the rest of us', when in fact there are so many different factors to everything. When people don't have the time to fully comprehend what they are taking in, and when what they are taking in is biased and very limited, it becomes easy to form very basic opinion of something that you don't fully understand and take that standpoint as you feel it is better than not having a stand point at all. It becomes easier to blame others for your problems when there are times when it is not the case, as it is not easy to criticise oneself. This is not to say that the media are always wrong of course, but it is the responsibility of the people to try and find out all the information first, to try and better understand things. It is supposed to be the media's responsibility to report things without bias, but of course many media outlets fail on that front.

 

I think the thing to think of is that there are around 7 billion people. There will be differences. Look at how many differences there are in your own set of friends, people you surround yourself with because they are similar. Then look at the differences within your society. People are affected and base their opinions on a number of things; age, sex, wealth, nationality, culture, heritage, religion, etc. Had you been born somewhere else you would likely have different opinions. The circumstance you were born into shaped you. The decisions you are now making and the circumstances you are finding yourself in because of them is shaping you further still. And whilst everybody goes on their own journeys, there are going to be a multitude of differing results. The key is to accept and celebrate that diversity - providing it doesn't encroach on somebody else.

 

There's my twisting and turning rant, anyway.

 

Edit: by the way I didn't reread that so some bits might not make sense.

The issue is that people are standing in the way of equality so sometimes it's not easy to react to some extent negatively when people say things about homosexuals and marriage which are obviously not true. Whilst their belief stems from oppression from religion it's almost impossible to read things where people push back against equality without taking a hard stance and saying 'NO, that isn't right'.

 

Whether intended or not some things that are said on gay marriage are deeply dangerous when it leads to perpetuating the resistance against what will eventually become a great act of equality.

 

People have different methods, of course, but I'm not of the opinion that we should just say 'oh, well because it's religious belief then it's more understandable and we should leave people to it'.

 

I can understanding the questioning of the methods used in terms of actually having a positive impact on somebody and convincing them to change their mind, though.

Wow so how about whoever deleted my post and Nathan's gets off their high horse and takes the time for once to actually at least tries talking about whatever or something because basically this is silly and has turned into more like a thing that's almost like a childish refusal to "lose" or back down from anything, or some sort of long-lives grudge. I really see no reasonable explanation to keep banning someone who has posted nothing the many times they have returned here worthy of being banned,constructive and relevant things, just because they're a certain person. You act so smug about it all the time too and it's just ridiculous.

What were they banned for in the first place? If someone was banned for a reason and keeps returning back then I can understand them being banned again. I imagine the best thing would be a cool off period where they are forced to take a break from the forum without making alias'. Then they can come back after a certain amount of time on a probation style thing. It's coming back when you are banned is likely to not endear you with the people who chose to ban you.

 

It all depends what the banning was for I guess.

He had a lot of cool-off periods, not just one. It doesn't matter if he's the nicest person on earth now, he's been banned for a very, very, very good reason and he's simply not welcomed anymore.

The sooner you'll accept that, the easier. He is not going to be accepted back. /high horse :nice:

Well good, now that's been clarified we can all move on.

 

Did anybody used to be homophobic, or did they used to dispute homosexualities existence but now feel differently about the matter? I'm not talking about because of this thread, of course, but just at any point in their life.

^haha i feel like a jerk now i'm sorry imke :disappointed:

it is still kinda eh to me though

 

Did anybody used to be homophobic, or did they used to dispute homosexualities existence but now feel differently about the matter? I'm not talking about because of this thread, of course, but just at any point in their life.

Me, I grew up with that sort of viewpoint and only like a year or two ago did I realize how much my upbringing screwed up my sense of right and wrong, and how people made all these decisions for me of what I thought about things. It took a long time to recover from all that, I'm still working on some of it haha.

^haha i feel like a jerk now i'm sorry imke :disappointed:

it is still kinda eh to me though

 

 

Me, I grew up with that sort of viewpoint and only like a year or two ago did I realize how much my upbringing screwed up my sense of right and wrong, and how people made all these decisions for me of what I thought about things. It took a long time to recover from all that, I'm still working on some of it haha.

 

Yeah, its kind of scary how much you are affected by your society/relationships. If you were born in a different place or to different people (and I mean this taking genetics out of it, simply nurture) or at a different point of time you could believe in what the future and indeed the past believed to be ridiculous. I know for a fact that there will be things that I believe truly that will turn out to be rubbish. I also know that I'll hold two opinions that I've never measured which contradict each other. You find them all the time and realign your opinion on things. It's usually in terms of morals given that that spans such a huge section.

^haha i feel like a jerk now i'm sorry imke :disappointed:

it is still kinda eh to me though

 

Okay, here's the thing (and I'm not only saying this to you): It's not alright that people are asking for second, third, fourth, fifth chances for someone who called/told members "Fuck off and die", "Choke on your father's dick", "****", "****", "retard", "moron" etc. on a daily basis and insinuated that the admin of this site accepts blow jobs from other members and that his wife tolerates paedophiles.

His behaviour on this board was not tolerable and therefore he will simply not be allowed back. That doesn't mean that he didn't change or that all his posts were or would be like that, it just means that he was given his chances (emphasis on the plural) before and that he didn't use them.

Post/Av combo.

Wow so how about whoever deleted my post and Nathan's gets off their high horse and takes the time for once to actually at least tries talking about whatever or something because basically this is silly and has turned into more like a thing that's almost like a childish refusal to "lose" or back down from anything, or some sort of long-lives grudge. I really see no reasonable explanation to keep banning someone who has posted nothing the many times they have returned here worthy of being banned,constructive and relevant things, just because they're a certain person. You act so smug about it all the time too and it's just ridiculous.

 

wut

 

r u srs

 

Nathan was complete asshole on here, although I realize he is probably alright to talk to on a one to one basis or over private chat.

Anyway I'm pretty sure he knew he was going to be perma-banned eventually so I wouldn't feel sorry for him.

It's just a thing with old dogmas, belief, and tradition. Homosexuals have existed as long as humans have, I believe, so it's not "unnatural" to me. With no offense to anyone of a religious background, I couldn't care less about what a 2,000 year old book has to say about homosexuality. I am, as they say, a recovering Catholic, and I've never thought it was wrong. However, I can see how the overly flamboyant gays can be off-putting.. I think they make everyone look bad. I say you should never let your sexuality become your personality, if that makes any sense.

Its hard to accept that someone who was pretty cool and funny (or atleast you thought he was) to be an asshole :disappointed: /about that other situation

 

s0rry

can we shut up about nathan