Are you talking about bush?

killer father is usa and the child is israel....nothing against the people of these nations though,only politics..

killer father is usa and the child is israel....nothing against the people of these nations though' date='only politics..[/quote']

 

 

ahhh. you act like every nation is not a killer. the real killer is nations like Iran and North Korea and Russia.

i didn't say that..but i put usa&israel in a different place...

i didn't say that..but i put usa&israel in a different place...

 

above iran and north korea?

also gareth have you ever lived in israel? or even know any israelis before you begin to accuse the country of offensive behaviour?

also if you propose that israel is the aggresor do you even have the slightest idea of the basis of israeli law? i'll assume not. as you see, israeli law is a combination of civil law and jewish biblical law. one law that has been kept from jewish law is the principle of attack only once already attacked. so self defence.

Israel does not want or need to go into lebanon. it is only because of a combination of hamas' and hizbullah's kidnappings.

 

**sorry for calling you a drug addict. it was the wrong thing to do. i hope you don't hold it against me. you have the right to an opinion as i do**

also gareth have you ever lived in israel? or even know any israelis before you begin to accuse the country of offensive behaviour?

also if you propose that israel is the aggresor do you even have the slightest idea of the basis of israeli law? i'll assume not. as you see, israeli law is a combination of civil law and jewish biblical law. one law that has been kept from jewish law is the principle of attack only once already attacked. so self defence.

Israel does not want or need to go into lebanon. it is only because of a combination of hamas' and hizbullah's kidnappings.

 

**sorry for calling you a drug addict. it was the wrong thing to do. i hope you don't hold it against me. you have the right to an opinion as i do**

 

Israel is only protecting itself. Israel is being attacked by terrorist groups, and they are the bad ones for striking back? geez what kind of world is it now days?

I've told you. Most people are going to call you crazy and laugh at you for conspiracy theories. Thats how most people who believe them are treated. And viewed as drug addicts or crazy or both.

 

You say that, but infact MOST people don't and MOST people here haven't either.

Israel is only protecting itself. Israel is being attacked by terrorist groups' date=' and they are the bad ones for striking back? geez what kind of world is it now days?[/quote']

 

A world where Israel have three soldiers captured and use it as an excuse to go all out on a massive offensive.

 

And also, why is it that everytime the Israel, U.S or the U.K attack and use force it's called 'liberation' or similar.....but when palistine or any Islamic nation attacks it's 'terrorsim'?? Even if the US or UK are the initial aggressor....

**sorry for calling you a drug addict. it was the wrong thing to do. i hope you don't hold it against me. you have the right to an opinion as i do**

 

Obviously, I knew you didn't really think I was on drugs.....

 

It's not that you called me "nuts" or that I use "LSD"...it's the way it's used.

It's like, "I don't like what your saying, so I'll say something bad about you personally" mentality which is a tactic used by many. Even the mainstream media do it with people who speak out. It's easier than making a real argument, which a lot of the time they really can't.

Israel never calls an offensive liberation. Israels military actions are always in self defence, protecting thei citizens. in lebanon and gaza these citizens are soldiers in the army. and its not as if the soldiers choose3 to fight for israel. military duty is compulsory in israel for 2-3 years after completion of high school. so the majority of the soldiers aren't military affecionados like many in the US

Obviously, I knew you didn't really think I was on drugs.....

 

It's not that you called me "nuts" or that I use "LSD"...it's the way it's used.

It's like, "I don't like what your saying, so I'll say something bad about you personally" mentality which is a tactic used by many. Even the mainstream media do it with people who speak out. It's easier than making a real argument, which a lot of the time they really can't.

 

yeah thats true. i suppose its a reaction thing where my typing goes faster than my brain comprehending what i'm saying and personal insults are used rather than facts or wit. once again i am sorry.

Israel never calls an offensive liberation. Israels military actions are always in self defence' date=' protecting thei citizens[/quote']

 

1 - That's utterly false, Israels military actions are NOT always in self defence, protecting thier citizens.

 

2 - Not 'Liberation' in Isreals case but it's never called terrorsim

ok. you can say that its not always in self defense but i wopuld like some proof of this...

 

also worth a read... israeli army code of ethics

http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=32

above iran and north korea?

 

well, neither above nor below... totally different, i just cannot find their(usa and israel) attacks reasonable..actually i can find a wise reason and because of that reason i don't support their actions...

and in this topic (i don't know what has been said in another subjects) i am (almost totally) with GazeboflossUK...

Israel's offensive did not start last week. The three-month-old Israeli government is responsible for the killing eighty or more Palestinians.........some of whom were children.......in attacks aimed at carrying out illegal extrajudicial assassinations and other punishments........

Hamas has maintained a one-sided cease-fire for the past sixteen months, but continued Israeli attacks made Palestinian retaliation only a question of time. (Palestinian factions not under Hamas's control had been firing home-made rockets across the border off and on during this period--almost always with little or no damage or casualties--but these factions maintained that the attacks were in response to Israeli provocations.)

 

Since the beginning of the intifada in September 2000, repeated Israeli bombardments and targeted assassinations against Palestinians have aggravated the violence and led to Israeli deaths. In fact, according to the US academic Steve Niva, who has been documenting the intifada, many major Palestinian suicide bombings since 2001 have come in retaliation for Israeli assassinations, many of which occurred when the Palestinians were mulling over or abiding by self-imposed restraint.

 

To give three examples:

 

On July 31, 2001, Israel's assassination of the two leading Hamas militants in Nablus ended a nearly two-month Hamas cease-fire, leading to the terrible August 9 Hamas suicide bombing in a Jerusalem pizzeria. On July 22, 2002, an Israeli air attack on a crowded apartment block in Gaza City killed a senior Hamas leader, Salah Shehada, and fourteen civilians, nine of them children, hours before a widely reported unilateral cease-fire declaration.

A suicide bombing followed on August 4. On June 10, 2003, Israel's attempted assassination of the senior Hamas political leader in Gaza, Abdel-Aziz al-Rantisi, which wounded him and killed four Palestinian civilians, led to a bus bombing in Jerusalem on June 11 that killed sixteen Israelis.

 

Although Israel's provocations don't justify suicide bombings, they demonstrate how its deterrence has lost its effectiveness and why the source of terrorism lies first and foremost in its aggression and occupation. In this context, affected Palestinian civilians see themselves not as "collateral damage" but as victims of state terrorism.

 

As for the nature of its "retaliation," one could hardly refer to Israel's destruction of the civic infrastructure of 1.3 million Palestinians as "measured." The Israeli army began last week's offensive on the Gaza Strip by bombing bridges, roads and electric supplies, and by arresting nearly one-third of Hamas's West Bank-based parliamentarians and ministers (according to the Israeli press, the security services are holding the elected Palestinian officials as bargaining chips with Hamas).

 

The nature of the Israeli offensive is to punish, overwhelm and deter with disproportionate force, regardless of the suffering of the general public. Cutting off basic services of the Palestinians is not only unjustified, it is collective punishment of a civilian population--illegal under the Fourth Geneva Convention.

 

The asymmetry between Israeli and Palestinian firepower mustn't be translated into asymmetry between the value of Israeli and Palestinian life. The Palestinians have captured one Israeli soldier, but Israel holds more than 9,000 Palestinian prisoners, about 900 of whom are under "administrative detention," i.e., without trial. It has held some of these prisoners for longer than three years. Those in the international community calling for the IDF soldier's release need to address, at minimum, the ordeal of Palestinian women and children in Israeli jails.

 

The Israeli government, like any other, has the right and indeed the duty to protect its people, but not at the high expense of the Palestinians, whose government's credibility also rests on defending its people. The use of military force to scare and overawe a civilian population for political ends--in this case, to pressure the Palestinian Authority or undermine the Hamas government--is the very definition of state terrorism.

 

In its thirty-nine years of occupation, Israel's attempts to tame or intimidate the Palestinians have instead led to their incitement and radicalization. Isn't it time for Israel to change course? After all, in a minuscule territory where the longest distance separating an Israeli and Palestinian area is no more than nine kilometers, Israelis will never be secure if the Palestinians are utterly insecure.

 

That's why Israel's harsh responses to Palestinian militancy have generally increased, not reduced, the threat to Israelis. While from 1978 to 1987 eighty-two Israelis were killed in Palestinian attacks, that figure jumped to more than 400 the following decade. And in less than two years of the second intifada (September 29, 2000, to May 29, 2002), more than 450 Israelis and 1,250 Palestinians were slain, mostly civilians on both sides.

 

Lastly, regarding its refusal to bargain with "terrorists," Israel's previous dealings with Lebanon's Hezbollah paint a different picture. Israel's bombardment of Beirut's electric generators and its Operation "Grapes of Wrath" in 1996, which led to the Qana massacre, failed, like many other operations, to deter the Lebanese resistance, which eventually forced Israel to negotiate through a third party with those it deemed "Islamist terrorists" and release hundreds of Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners from its jails in exchange for the remains of dead Israeli soldiers.

 

The ongoing saga has once again demonstrated the absurdity of unilateralism as a viable and secure solution. And yet, the Olmert government is using the kidnapping of the soldier to undermine the historic agreement Hamas has reached with PA President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah party over a unity government and de facto recognition of and negotiations with Israel, its sworn enemy.

 

Whether we like it or not, Hamas, like Hezbollah, is mostly a byproduct of an oppressive occupation, not the other way around. That's why refraining from excessive use of force and concentrating all efforts on a negotiated end to the occupation is paramount. Otherwise, Israel will only increase Hamas's popularity and push it back to clandestinity and war.

 

 

"Israel's offensive against the besieged territories -- and now Lebanon -- will only leave the region with more destruction, and the Israeli government with more deadlock."

Marwan Bishara - lecturer at the American University of Paris

lol not under hamas' control. hamas are a terrorist group. if the people aren't under their control then what are they?

i'm not sure if you've actually been to hamas' website but they openly state that they aim to 'drive the zionists (israel) into the meditteranean'. what about the israeli citizens maimed and injured by radical palestinian suicide bombings? many on buses during peak hour when children are going to school. hamas and hizbollah target the whole nation of israel and its people. the israeli army targets the terrorist groups and most unfortunately civilians caught in the crossfire.

Remember these hamas people are the same people who wooed a 16 autistic palestinian from the west bank to strap bombs to his chest and attempt to travel into jerusalem to explode it... hamas has no civil or democratic aims other than to wipe israel off the map.

I don't support the Bombings by either side....but....

 

....The support for Israel here is frighening.

 

I'm not going to get into this any further here.....it's a dead end argument.

 

Israel’s supposed arch-enemy, the terrorist group Hamas, was founded and funded by Israel’s dominant Likud party and continues to be bankrolled to this day by political bodies pushing a one world government system. This is not my opinion and I am not breaking an exclusive story. It is a documented fact reported on by mainstream news outlets and admitted by respected individuals within the US and Israeli governments and intelligence agencies.

 

Nidal planned to oust Saddam (Palestinian terrorist working for Mossad): News Insight 08/22/02

 

The Hamas-Likud Pairing: Jerusalem Post 08/25/95

 

Hamas Divided Against Itself: Middle East Intelligence Bullitin 06/99

 

Israeli Roots of Hamas are being exposed: Centre for Research on Globalisation 18/18/02

 

Sharon War Plan Exposed: Hamas Gang Is His Tool: Executive Intelligence Review 07/20/01

 

Arafat: Hamas Are Sharon's Children: Executive Review News Service 12/21/01

 

Israel's Hamas: The New York Press 04/17/02

 

The objectives of Hamas dovetail with those of the Likud, no settlement at all costs. Whenever the prospect of a workable peace settlement between the Israelis and Palestinians arises, Hamas or one of their offshoots blows a bus, restaurant or a hotel to pieces. This gives Israel the justification needed to scupper any agreement and further entrench their occupation of disputed lands. All the outsider sees is carnage, death and a mainstream media that spins the issue so that these atrocities somehow represent the wishes of the Palestinian people.

 

The Globalists have no intention of settling the conflict and will likely use it several years down the line to initiate a near-apocalyptic third world war that will fully ensconce their wicked empire. The final phase is a stage-managed ‘clash of civilizations’ between the Arab world, possibly supported by China, and the west.

 

According to United Press International,

 

“Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years.”

the support for israel isn't frigtening. i'm jewish and unless you find another place in the world where jews can go if a holocaust ever happens again tell me so. until then israel has every right to protect the state and its civilians not only for the country but the jewish people as well.

 

in regards to 'oppressive occupation' i'll remind you that it was the palestinians who wanted ALL of israel in '47 with the UN resolution and rejected the proposed plan of settlement. i also draw your attention to ehud barak's offering to arafat and the palestinians wher he gave them joint control over jerusalem as well as a region that is far larger than the current palestinian territories.

 

also with palestinian women and children in jails. don't speak out of your ass by grossly extrapolating the situation.

if there are such in jails they are terrorists or extremists that propagate for the destruction of israel.

 

in the situation in israel there are extremists on both sides. religious settlers in the west bank and gaza fuel a situation where they aggravate palestinians then refuse to serve in israel's army as they are already 'praying for the country'

 

arafat squandered millions of israeli money for the devlopment of a palestinian state into swiss bank accounts and personal houses etc. how else can they drive mercedes while the 'rest of their people' barely have 1st world living conditions. there is a real problem in the P.A with corruption.

 

i don't support ariel sharon starting the intifada either. i have not met or known an israeli that is pro war especially the ones that are my age of 16/17. they know that in less than a year they will be called up to the army to fight, possibly losing their lives *god forbid*. these are people i have seen face to face and who lived with us for a month last year on student exchange. i don't a war neither do they.

 

live in israel, have friends there, hear about the suicide bombings of pizza restaurants, go to a funeral of a murdered teenager. then you will see both sides of the equation and not the totally leftist view of backing the underdog.

despite my post in the world war III thread....

I would say one thing, which I took from a debate I heard on 5 live this morning...

' you cant blame the Israeli kids, they know of no other home... and its not their fault they are there... ' very true.... I think

however they still need to be re educated though... to achive peace in the future

the israeli kids need to be educated better?! the palestinian children need to not be indoctrinated by terrorist groups!

the israeli kids need to be educated better?! the palestinian children need to not be indoctrinated by terrorist groups!

 

Define the word terrorist ?? please...before responding please take this into account...

 

Your two year old sister.. is out playing with your brother aged of five years old... they are playing in waste ground with many hazards... then some army solders storm around the corner then shoot them thinking they are terrorists....

 

How would you feel and how would you respond... ?

 

I guess the media and education is provided my right wingers... of which is only normally suited to members of the klu klux klan.... END OFF ...

im fucking jewish you dick. don't ever implicate me being klu klux klan. its not funny and i see no reason why that should allow you to keep your account when you are blatantly racist and anti-semitic.

 

army soldiers storm around corner killing little children.... thats a little dramatic isn't it? i'm trying to remember when the israeli army has shot dead five and two year old children. I CAN'T! BECAUSE THATS NEVER HAPPENED. using such examples shows you have absolutely no clue about the situation or politics unlike everyone else that posts in this forum. get your facts straight then post. don't over dramatise for empathy.

 

when i refer to terrorist i refer to hamas and islamic jihad and the like. not everyday palestinians or muslims of which several of my friends are, they are peaceful. its just unfortunate that these orginisations are able to publish books that are anti-israel then give them to school children. i have seen these books with my own eyes so don't question the authenticity.

live in israel' date=' have friends there, hear about the suicide bombings of pizza restaurants, go to a funeral of a murdered teenager. then you will see both sides of the equation and not the totally leftist view of backing the underdog.[/quote']

 

You can make this point and I see where you are coming from with it.....but to be fair.....to live in a country doesn't always give that person the correct view of things. Look at America at the moment.....their constitution is being eroded before their very eyes, yet many there refuse to see it. However, the numbers who are realising it are steadily growing there, thankfully.

 

To live alongside and witness such horiffic events mostly sparks hatred for whoever is told to be behind the attack......often rage and pain blinds people from truths and other possibilities........look at 9/11 - that's a major example.

 

Also, to make one thing clear, I'm not anti-jew anything of the sort.......the problem lies with criminal government elements in multiple regions and their pre-meditated design for the certian parts of the world.

its the US. unfortunately israel is in a sticky situation and has to follow the US in what the US wants in the region or israel doesn't get money from the united states government. *i'm sure you already know this*

 

heck i know what you mean about not being there. if i had the option id vote out the republicans and put in the democrats. at least they could fire rifles and annunciate words such as iraq and nuclear. lol.

 

i'm going to bed now. its 2am here in aus. good talking to you gareth- you have alot to share. (still feel guilty about my earlier accusations:embarassed:)

Hahaha,

 

....well Democrats are probably just as bad to be honest....when a RICH major Republican supporter (Rupert Murdoch) starts supporting Hilary Clinton and the Democrats you know there's something amiss.

 

Both parties are controlled by the same central banks....scary when you haven't got a real choice anymore...:(