@ Indya: We've been through this and I don't think we're going to convince Mr. Baggins that it's not the way to do it at this point,lol. (And remember, I've already said I was raised a Christian and wholly respect the Faith and Jesus, even when I don't agree with the Church's methods.

 

 

Right, that's what I'm saying. I don't like preachers except some being in my family and that's it. I don't like bible thumpers. They preach to me about something I already know but... especially starting a thread about this for everyone and there mama to see is ridiculous.

The Kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed... So, basically, collect a bunch of the seeds, grind, add vinegar and marjoram to taste, and spread the kingdom heavily on your favorite sandwich, and enjoy!:laugh3: (oops! never mind me - it must(ard) been' the Kaiser roll in me shining through!):P

Hey, that's good to hear - even us agnostics get to see the Christian model! (Is she cute??:rolleyes:)

 

Right, that's what I'm saying. I don't like preachers except some being in my family and that's it. I don't like bible thumpers. They preach to me about something I already know but... especially starting a thread about this for everyone and there mama to see is ridiculous.

 

I don't know far back you read, but my Mom was a Church organist/choir director, so I grew up with way too much Bible-thumping...it drove me away for years. Even now I identify as a Christian/Buddhist, which I know would get me sent to Hell by a lot of people's standards, but I'm slowly growing to be at peace with myself instead of living in fear of a vengeful God, and I think that makes me a more compassionate person in the end. (By your WORKS shall you know them...uh-oh...here comes the Faith without works is dead argument,lol.)

 

I'm glad for the thread because we don't just talk about Coldplay here, and I love a good religious convo, but it's not going to win too many souls,lol.

 

@ Chuck, thanks to you, I'm now craving a really good sandwich, and that's become my definition of Heaven right now!!:lol:

Yes, I think we all got an overdose of religion at one time or another in our lives.. Although Tracie, I think you've seen wayy more than most of us regulars! I can only imagine growing up that way.. I think you've done quite well for having the bible thumping right at home!! I just took the messages way too seriously when I was younger, and now I take it all with a little salt and mustard - so much severity isn't normal, and I think blocks a lot of common sense thinking at times.. Buddhism sounds like a nice antidote - serene and contemplative, much more of an inner-peace thing - that's nice to have.

So, the sandwich:p should be fish (tuna, sardines, or fillets) on bread, with ground mustard;) for the holy show... (That would make it properly biblical..)

Hundreds have already come to Christ on other forums this way, so you're wrong. BTW where are you witnessing and who are you witnessing to?

 

The same could be said for the crusades or Rome's conquest using the sword, but does it mean it's the right way? God often takes mistakes of men and uses them for his own glory and purpose.

god doesn't exist. man makes the mistake of thinking everything has to have an answer, and thinks he has found it through a religion.

 

to whoever started the thread: open your eyes!

jesus christ, allah, yaweh, the teachings of buddha or any deity will give you a pleasant afterlife of 72 virgins or save you from pits of fire. the fact is humans and our souls are a group of chemical reactions. when those reactions stop, life stops and what is known as our soul, ceases to exist. when you realise that fact, there is no need for religion.

 

read a book or two about scientific fact. i have, and i will recommend, should you see fit.

Read "The Five People You Meet In Heaven" by Mitch Albom. And watch the television movie that was made too.

 

Genuine question:

Does science actually prove that God does not exist?

does it prove he DOES exist? no.

 

there is more evidence to the contrary. read about the teacup analogy that is a common atheist's analogy for the existence of god and the interplay with science.

 

suppose a teacup was orbiting mars, currently the telescopes we have couldn't see it, but we will eventually have the ability to see it, once we progress enough. that is, if the teacup exists. logic would imply there is no teacup orbiting mars as it has no logial place, but just because we cannot see it it does not exist. thus, by common logic god is yet to be disproved, but also proved, and common logic and scientific fact would suggest that there is no supernatural.

Fair enough.

If god does not exist where did everything come from? I don't see how people don't believe in A god or gods....I mean the endless amount of matter had to be created somehow, things never just exist.

If god does not exist where did everything come from? I don't see how people don't believe in A god or gods....I mean the endless amount of matter had to be created somehow, things never just exist.

 

Well this seems to be the defining trait of the question, "Is there a God?" The answer is totally obvious for both atheists and theists, because they are coming at it from different directions.

 

Ask yourself: What is the default? That there is nothing? Then you probably believe in God. If you think the default is that stuff exists, then you don't need to believe in God.

 

Personally I think there is a God, but I still have some questions about his nature...

I believe in...

 

 

....Me!

Well this seems to be the defining trait of the question, "Is there a God?" The answer is totally obvious for both atheists and theists, because they are coming at it from different directions.

 

Ask yourself: What is the default? That there is nothing? Then you probably believe in God. If you think the default is that stuff exists, then you don't need to believe in God.

 

Personally I think there is a God, but I still have some questions about his nature...

 

My question is, how can something just exist? its not scientifically possible, everything comes from something or somewhere. All this matter in the universe didn't just poof, magically appear. I know lots of people who believe in A god but do not know which one they believe in, it makes sense but believing this huge amount of matter just appeared on its own is hard to believe.

^All praise be to Almighty Mod!:lol:

 

But if we're going to bring science into it, let's not forget that statistically, the majority of scientists now favour the theory of 'intelligent design'. Not all do, but many very educated men and women do now believe there is 'something' or 'someone' specifically responsible for the existence of all things, so we can't simply put it down to a debate of science vs. faith anymore...except on the X Files,lol.

^All praise be to Almighty Mod!:lol:

 

But if we're going to bring science into it, let's not forget that statistically, the majority of scientists now favour the theory of 'intelligent design'. Not all do, but many very educated men and women do now believe there is 'something' or 'someone' specifically responsible for the existence of all things, so we can't simply put it down to a debate of science vs. faith anymore...except on the X Files,lol.

 

THANK YOU! a huge amount in the scientific community agree evolution is bull, in fact most scientific studies are now disproving evolution. The other day i just listened to a large amount of geneticist talking about science disproving evolution. It's astounding how most people believe what they want and ignore science.

My question is, how can something just exist? its not scientifically possible, everything comes from something or somewhere. All this matter in the universe didn't just poof, magically appear. I know lots of people who believe in A god but do not know which one they believe in, it makes sense but believing this huge amount of matter just appeared on its own is hard to believe.

 

well see heres the thing that is what we can prove happen. in einstein's theory of the big bang (which was formulated through research, not some crazy person from 2000 years ago hearing the voice of 'god') posit that the universe came into existence because at some chance occurence there was a substantial increase in matter compared to anti-matter (before the universe, matter and anti-matter were in proportion) and thus the big bang occurred because of this and 13 billion years later here we are.

THANK YOU! a huge amount in the scientific community agree evolution is bull, in fact most scientific studies are now disproving evolution. The other day i just listened to a large amount of geneticist talking about science disproving evolution. It's astounding how most people believe what they want and ignore science.

 

care to present some evidence to support this?

do you catalogue every report on evolution vs intelligent design? so how would you know that? if intelligent design is the scientifically proven theory then you have to prove the existence of the designer which is impossible for science to do. but we can prove that darwinian evolution is the means by which organisms evolve, and genes are the method by which this occurs.

 

have you read anything about darwinian evolution from a side that supports it? i highly doubt it nick.

Not to get into a huge debate, but let me correct a few things:

 

~ Intelligent Design is only a theory. Not to burst the Darwinists' bubble, but you're not the only folks who are allowed to hide behind the "it's only a theory" shield. As such, Intelligent Design doesn't claim to have all the answers - unlike Creationism, which it is often conveniently confused with.

 

~ Intelligent Design doesn't speculate as to the nature of the designer/s. It's simply pointing out that some DNA transcription errors aren't really errors after all, but are intentional. Is the designer conscious? Not sure. Are there more than one designer? Not sure. How do we differentiate between simple natural selection and complex intelligent intervention? Not sure.

 

~ There are certain aspects of the evolutionary record that are best explained by Intelligent Design, yet the scientific community aren't willing to admit it. Punctuated equilibrium is one.

 

It's my belief that there is a healthy mix of intelligence and randomness involved in the evolution of life on Earth. I'm not sure that God really cares what we look like or how our vestigial organs once functioned as much as how we use our time here... whether that is in service to God, or to ourselves depends on your belief system.

musings on the universe

 

Well, perhaps this is true. But to me, we were given the cranial capacity we have to unravel the mysteries of the universe, using logical means, and creative thoughts to try and carve an honest path through the thicket of possibilities. Sometimes we hit upon a discovery that we think holds the key to unlock every door, and then we find that the truth is so much more detailed than we had imagined. We like to boil it down to one simple equation; the universe is composed of many, many "simple" equations, that together make for one extraordinary symphony!

So, with DNA, it's not so simple, as we are now learning. Genes do occasionally move between separate species, often far removed, via vectors such as viruses. Occasionally, 'chance' mutations cause the viruses to stay put with their bits of moved DNA segments, and this changes some of the pre-conceived notions about evolutionary boundaries.. Natural selection still selects for the more fit, but the code can "jump" boundaries. There again, even natural selection is rarely so harsh, else many of the variations which could prove useful when conditions change would be lost in time. Also, I suspect segments of DNA are there to be activated when conditions do change - there's a lot of DNA that sits idle, and random mutations rarely produces a useful trait, so some things may be tucked away from an earlier evolutionary effort, so to speak, laying in wait for the right time to be turned on.

Who holds the switch? What is randomness? Good questions to ask! I suspect the whole of the universe, or the multitude of universes, act as a giant gearwork, and if that's God, then so be it! All I know is that we have been given the skills and the opportunity to unravel the strands, and find the truth, however complex that may be. With each discovery, a new facet on the gem is seen, and shines a light within the human conscious of realizing our full potential for discovering truth. But to honor truth, above all else, is closest to Godliness. And perhaps Einstein was correct in saying that "God does not roll dice with the Universe". So, I have wondered myself about the meaning of "randomness" as a concept. It's useful, but perplexing. What really is it?? All the interacting equations, with chaotic tipping points on the edges of the dice, and a limited number of states/outcomes (sides of the dice), but with a very large number of simultaneous equations running, that begin to blend into that thing we term "randomness"?

So, we are the very unlikely outcome of a huge number of events, each as unlikely as the next, and yet - here we are! So, yes, in that sense I do believe in a higher collective power, be it quite enormous to comprehend. To me, that is God. What brings us to a more civilized, more collective, and successfully motivated condition, and allows us to unravel further the mysteries - this appears to one of our highest callings. As Galileo saw it, God gave us brains to think, and eyes to see, as well as hearts to feel, and hands to work. All is important in the process of human success.;)

chuck, fantastic post.

 

"But to honor truth, above all else, is closest to Godliness."

 

This is absolutely correct, and it is the pillar of science. Look past the hype, question everything, seek the truth - not what you hope or WISH to be true.

 

Have you heard of Haldane's Dilemma? It's a mathematical critique of the theory of evolution, and it tears down the Darwinist arguments far better than Intelligent Design does.

 

I also wonder about randomness... it seems true randomness could be found at the quantum level. Perhaps DNA is somehow influenced by quantum mechanics in an undiscovered way...

<>

 

Thanks for the compliment Mr. Saffire!:) I'm just taking my best guess - we all have an innate need to fill in the blanks, and it's my only way of rationalizing our reason for existing, other than to simply exist!

I know not of Haldane's Dilemma - I will gladly search for more about it! I do think natural selection is a force in the process of shaping species within a given environment, but the watchmaker has a great deal hidden behind the exposed hands which we see. If Intelligent Design exists, to me at this point, it's only by very broad strokes of the brush that is the Universe. I have certain reservations about such theories, because of a human tendency we all have to ascribe actions in terms of human invention and our innate tendency to simplify and stick with what we know already. Even Einstein had this flaw - hence, as you well know, he couldn't deal with quantum mechanics very well because it defies intuition, and relies heavily on probability. So, to me, all the balls have been set in motion on the billiard table to do what they will, and perhaps the initial break was done by God, or perhaps the parts make the whole, and it's all God.. But I will search!

Yes, randomness! It's always been a cipher to me as well! It works wonders, yet what really is it?? I think both Einstein and Heisenberg were correct, despite their disagreement.. Randomness must have a logical explanation in the equations of the universe, but obviously exists. Someone once said that a greater number of states (as in Entropy) drives the Universe, and this expanding number of possibilities keeps growing. Perhaps randomness is some expression of this - as possibilities grow, so do the equations defining their interactions, and the end result when all the colors are combined is white light, so to speak, composed of the full spectrum, and vast complex equations of interacting forces describing when each frequency spits off from the electron orbitals.. I'm babbling here, but maybe there is something to the concept? Perhaps nothing new - minds have churned over these ideas from time immemorial to the present I'm sure.. Anyhow, thanks for the quest!

Didn't Frodo (the guy that started this thread) go to the Undying Lands? Where does that fit in with all this. Arghh, so complicated :D

Please please feel free to ask me anything you want regarding how to get to heaven. This is not a troll thread or I would be here answering questions.

 

There are no guarantees,thats the problem with the self-righteous.

Saying your prayers and wearing your best hat to church every sunday while you incessantly judge others isnt the golden ticket either my friend.

care to present some evidence to support this?

do you catalogue every report on evolution vs intelligent design? so how would you know that? if intelligent design is the scientifically proven theory then you have to prove the existence of the designer which is impossible for science to do. but we can prove that darwinian evolution is the means by which organisms evolve, and genes are the method by which this occurs.

 

have you read anything about darwinian evolution from a side that supports it? i highly doubt it nick.

 

Search the forum, i posted PAGES of hard science before. People will choose to believe fairy tales and ignore science. On top of that, the theories use by evolutionist never stand up to test.

I don't like creationists approach to this subject, i like hard facts and/or scientific research. I'm happy to see the scientific community is starting to realize they need to follow science not fairy tales. Maybe one day more people will listen to real science.