All you said about the rarity and incredible occurrence of life is utterly true, chuck, I just utterly don't understand why anyone (not talking about you) want to add any sort of God or "spiritual entity" into the mix, it takes all of the wonder and beauty out of the whole system. Go outside some night and look at the stars when it's cold outside and think about all the things science has basically proved about them -- they're unimaginably huge and far away, each one of them is unique, and humans have managed by sheer luck and chance to build up a consciousness out of the natural world and can observe such things, that can notice patterns in them, that can express themselves with such clarity to others, through language, art, music, acting, what have you, and simultaneously categorize virtually everything that we can observe into reasonable laws based on logic that are also actually true -- to think that anybody would rather live believing that all of the undeniable beauty in the universe and that human existence is capable of is because of or relies on some divine man sitting in the clouds is just horrible to me. Religion does not add wonder to the world, it makes it duller and more uninteresting; it's technically got the same basis as science, which is explaining the world, except with religion you just make shit up and believe it to make yourself feel better; with science you learn about the actual world. Not really a contest if you ask me.

 

I'd rather be able to know facts (or almost facts) about this existence than any sort of made up shit about someone else's rules and an afterlife once you die, especially considering most of humanities gods are just shit people anyway, vindictive, mean, bitchy, etc. And don't give me any of that crap about how religion fosters spiritual growth and personal happiness, that's bullshit, I'm not a religious person but I would say I am fairly spiritual, since I can appreciate what an amazing world this place can be and all the vastness and fascinating bits about the universe. I live in awe of the world every day without any sort of God motivating me. Again, I just really don't get the fundamental concept behind religions when you have science and reason, which don't cancel out any of the artistic expressions of the human race or fascination in the world (actually I think scientific discoveries add to both of these things.) Anyone can name me something they think religion does good and I can say something non-religion does better. Humans don't need a god to make them do whatever amazing things they do, they can do it by themselves, and they clearly have considering they've gotten this far without a god, you know, existing.

Time acually doesn't exist as we see it.

I'm a fairly autonomous person who used to go to church when I was young but I don't believe I make right decisions based on my religious experiences as a child, mainly because as a child I never took interest in it. I take interest in religion a lot now, not as in following or believing in a religion but studying a religion and the followers of that religion.

I stopped reading when you said you were a Christian but believed in the Einsteinien God, that would make you no Christian of any way shape or form.

Did chuck say he was a Christian? *checks previous pages* What he's describing seems much more akin to pantheism.

Did chuck say he was a Christian? *checks previous pages* What he's describing seems much more akin to pantheism.

 

The way he was arguing with me about Christianity lead me to believe he was a Christian.

 

I just don't think you can pick and choose which bits you like and don't like about religion, you can't do that with anything else. You can't just go "Nah, I don't believe that Carbon has 4 electrons in it's outer shell and can therefore bond with 4 other atoms" if you said that, you'd be a laughing stock, but you do it with religion and it's all good.

Yeah, I think it was Thomas Jefferson who cut out of the Bible the miracles and spiritual elements he didn't believe. There's also an old saying that if you approach religion that way, its not God you believe, but yourself. I'm still coming to terms with that. The thing about the Bible is its a compilation of strictly disconnected writings, starting with Jewish mythology, skipping later to Jesus, followed by pauline writings to various churches. I wouldn't believe the New testament, as a whole, to be God-inspired. Paul's writings for example are his own interpretations of the faith, but imo Jesus is the only real authority in christianity for those who subscribe to it.

 

At the most I consider myself a classical theist (maybe deist) surrounded by strong Christians. I'm intrigued by Christianity, and learn a lot by studying it, but am not altogether convinced by it.

The Vatican banned christians from watching New Moon! God Exists!

Haha, why did they do that?

dream on

 

The way he was arguing with me about Christianity lead me to believe he was a Christian.

 

I just don't think you can pick and choose which bits you like and don't like about religion, you can't do that with anything else. You can't just go "Nah, I don't believe that Carbon has 4 electrons in it's outer shell and can therefore bond with 4 other atoms" if you said that, you'd be a laughing stock, but you do it with religion and it's all good.

I'm cool on Christ - he said some good stuff, did a lot of good (like standing up against corruption, knowing in the end you'll get the ax), and the people that embellished on the story generally did a pretty spiffy job of it. It's a good novel.

I think you can pick and choose! Why? Because it's contradictory anyways, so go with what you like!!:P (YES! Mix and Match your own religion!) A lot of it is just rules of society codified into written form, which changes over time. So, go with what makes sense, and just find passages that you like.;) A bunch of authors already did that for us, so a few more can't hurt..

 

Carbon, at.wt.12 exactly, having 6 protons, 6 neutrons, and 6 electrons. Two in S, four in P, but SP3 orbital hybridization makes it possible to form 4 bonds with nice bond angles (combining the S & P orbitals), so it's not that simple exactly... Now, if you energize the electrons just the right amount, and cool the atoms, there may be a state where the electrons begin to actually "orbit" the nucleus, instead of the mixed state of properties between orbiting particles and quantum mechanical wave forms.. Of course, occasionally an electron collides with the nucleus, but we won't go there for now.

What I'm saying is that things may be larger than we perceive, in terms of influences and outcomes. Religion may produce at times a serene state of mind, where deeper contemplation is possible, as it focuses the mind and trains us to blot out external interferences. It may produce stability in society, wherein a reflective state of mind finds fertile ground to grow in, and expand our understanding of the known universe. And why does it exist at all? Perhaps through all the twists and turns of our social and cultural evolution, we have advanced through the influences of various religions.. It affects scientific discovery, through ways we often don't contemplate when we are focused narrowly on scientific thought. Wasn't Gregor Mendel a monk? Even as an instrument maker, Galileo held fast to his belief in God ("did not God also give us brains to think with, as well as hearts to feel with and hands to work with?"), and perhaps instrument making too is a sort of religion - rituals, patterns to follow, materials to understand, quiet contemplative time to do it in.

To leap past rational thinking is sometimes necessary as well - quantum mechanics requires a sort of non-intuitive creative thinking, something which comes from the imagination, and from stories (Alice in Wonderland), and further advances in theoretical physics comes as much from the day-dreams of physicists, as from science-fiction novels..

But beyond all that, there is an inherent human need for stability, for compassion, for some framework or guide to begin with. I am not saying that everything in the Bible is the word of God, or that it's all wonderful, but there are many morality tales that do make sense and bring order to chaos, where progress trumps regression. There are some stories that pique the imagination, some requiring our minds to dream past what limits us in the physical world. Imagination is more powerful than knowledge.. where have I heard that before??;)

 

 

 

^well...you like Christ. Even monty python and the Beatles thought he was a cool guy, but do you believe he was God incarnate, as he clearly implied? If not, how do you get around that glaring contradiction. Excuse my saying, but you're not making much sense. You can't, as you say, just mix and match different ideologies and pass it off as cogent.

Yeah, I think it was Thomas Jefferson who cut out of the Bible the miracles and spiritual elements he didn't believe. There's also an old saying that if you approach religion that way, its not God you believe, but yourself. I'm still coming to terms with that. The thing about the Bible is its a compilation of strictly disconnected writings, starting with Jewish mythology, skipping later to Jesus, followed by pauline writings to various churches. I wouldn't believe the New testament, as a whole, to be God-inspired. Paul's writings for example are his own interpretations of the faith, but imo Jesus is the only real authority in christianity for those who subscribe to it.

:laugh3:I love it! T. Jefferson did that?! Great!! Why just let the Vatican Council do the snipping and clipping?;) Well then, put faith in your own beliefs, and stay true to yourself - sounds like sage advice!

Yes, the bible is quite the compilation - even the 4 accepted canonical gospels were written many years apart, and about all biblical scholars can say with any degree of possible clarity is that quelle, or Q (those parts common to all 4) have any likelihood of being accurate portrayal of what Jesus might have said or done. Thanks for your viewpoints on the Bible, and on Paul - but perhaps since it is a novel, if he's part of the novel, then what he has to say about Jesus can count to a believer as well.. Hard to say!

At the most I consider myself a classical theist (maybe deist) surrounded by strong Christians. I'm intrigued by Christianity, and learn a lot by studying it, but am not altogether convinced by it.

Hmm.. a classical theist (or deist).. how so?

Some people believe that the people who wrote the new testament made up the things that Jesus said and did...

Hmm.. a classical theist (or deist).. how so?

 

In the sense that I subscribe to aristotle's cosmological argument that the universe had a cause, or prime mover.

 

I'm also impressed by the teleological stance that, considering the improbably perfect, orderly way the earth is comprised and situated in the galaxy, the unexplained phenomenon of life, alongside the mental consciousness and moral awareness we humans exhibit. I have a tough time believing that this all resulted from mindless accident or coincidence.

 

But how this 'deity' relates to earth and mankind I cannot say.

^well...you like Christ. Even monty python and the Beatles thought he was a cool guy, but do you believe he was God incarnate, as he clearly implied? If not, how do you get around that glaring contradiction. Excuse my saying, but you're not making much sense. You can't, as you say, just mix and match different ideologies and pass it off as cogent.

God in human form?? No, I can't buy that either. Although, since I believe we are all part of God, then in a sense Jesus was, just as you and I are. He seems to me to be a reformer, a man who sparked deeper thoughts in people's minds, and an actor to bring out a kinder side to Judaism, and someone who was willing to do what is best for his people, despite the certainty of suffering and death. An example to be followed, as a way forward against those who would use fear and intimidation to control others, and a way to break inequities in society.

He was an actor - he was portraying the idealized man, the biblical messiah.

 

Like the bible is a cogent work anyways!:laugh3: I can mix and match things as I choose - like any good novelist.:artist::P Not making sense?? Perhaps, as we approach the tips of the tree of knowledge, not every direction forward is clear, and we have to experiment with several different ideas in our minds, to imagine which way things could go. After all, the mysteries still abound in nature, as in religion..

heh, interesting. So assuming you agree with my assumption that you are a pantheist. How do you respond to the critique that 'if God is everything, than he is nothing.'?

In the sense that I subscribe to aristotle's cosmological argument that the universe had a cause, or prime mover.

Aristotle I am not as familiar with (jogs memory..) Well, what is the driving force in the universe? Good question! Still a matter of debate. Some say it's greater number of states - of possibilities. Others say it's from condensed forms of energy to non-condensed, lower energy states. What came before, and how could time have begun at the same instance as the big bang? What is randomness, and if it doesn't exist, then what does?? Equations too deep for this mind right now...

 

I'm also impressed by the teleological stance that, considering the improbably perfect, orderly way the earth is comprised and situated in the galaxy, the unexplained phenomenon of life, alongside the mental consciousness and moral awareness we humans exhibit. I have a tough time believing that this all resulted from mindless accident or coincidence.

The infinite improbability drive - at the center of the Heart of Gold. It is truly amazing, isn't it? I agree! Just pure happenstance.;) Sheer luck. ;) Even the lowest probability event occurs on occasion; either that, or there is some reason for it and for us being here. So, I think the purpose is clear - we're on the right path to discovery - it is our destiny.

 

But how this 'deity' relates to earth and mankind I cannot say.

Perhaps it's the perfect machine - a self-unraveling code of sorts; the ultimate computer (with mice and dice).

The mystery, the thrill of the chase, the joy of discovery - there's the fuel that keeps the human engine going...

heh, interesting. So assuming you agree with my assumption that you are a pantheist. How do you respond to the critique that 'if God is everything, than he is nothing.'?

The pantheon of Gods? I am a constantly evolving conscious being - yes, pantheist perhaps.

If God is everything, then as everything exists, therefore God exists. Perhaps harder to put a finger on, as when God is everything, then everything is God, and one cannot just point to a location, or paint a face to show what God looks like.

What sayest thou to this question?

Well I'm not sure what is so significant about God, if God is simply matter. If a table is as much God as a lampshade.

Well I'm not sure what is so significant about God, if God is simply matter. If a table is as much God as a lampshade.

Assuming the Universe is only matter..:inquisitive: The Universe is that, and a whole lot more!!

That table contains atoms that may have been part of the gases exhaled by Aristotle, for instance. And the lampshade - was once interstellar particles, being clumped together into hot hydrogen, condensed by gravity into a sun, exploded, and then re-condensed into planets. Mined (if glass) as sand and light element oxides or carbonates.. Sand that a dinosaur may have tread upon, or calcium carbonate that once was a coral reef, supporting the life that may have evolved eventually into we humans.. The technologies used to make the lamp shade and its parts - a long series of steps that advanced modern living, and gave us everything from velcro fabrics to kevlar vests. All things are connected.

There is always so much more.

You idiot, it's just matter. Of course it's been reused, that doesn't mean the table or lampshade holds some special significance on its own just because it was born from stars or swallowed by an old giraffe or something. All that you're noticing doesn't have anything to do with a God or spiritual force, it's just how the world works.

Some people believe that the people who wrote the new testament made up the things that Jesus said and did...

 

This made me laugh out loud.

I definitely do not think that the new testament is the word of jesus. please.

All you said about the rarity and incredible occurrence of life is utterly true, chuck, I just utterly don't understand why anyone (not talking about you) want to add any sort of God or "spiritual entity" into the mix, it takes all of the wonder and beauty out of the whole system. Go outside some night and look at the stars when it's cold outside and think about all the things science has basically proved about them -- they're unimaginably huge and far away, each one of them is unique, and humans have managed by sheer luck and chance to build up a consciousness out of the natural world and can observe such things, that can notice patterns in them, that can express themselves with such clarity to others, through language, art, music, acting, what have you, and simultaneously categorize virtually everything that we can observe into reasonable laws based on logic that are also actually true -- to think that anybody would rather live believing that all of the undeniable beauty in the universe and that human existence is capable of is because of or relies on some divine man sitting in the clouds is just horrible to me. Religion does not add wonder to the world, it makes it duller and more uninteresting; it's technically got the same basis as science, which is explaining the world, except with religion you just make shit up and believe it to make yourself feel better; with science you learn about the actual world. Not really a contest if you ask me.

 

I'd rather be able to know facts (or almost facts) about this existence than any sort of made up shit about someone else's rules and an afterlife once you die, especially considering most of humanities gods are just shit people anyway, vindictive, mean, bitchy, etc. And don't give me any of that crap about how religion fosters spiritual growth and personal happiness, that's bullshit, I'm not a religious person but I would say I am fairly spiritual, since I can appreciate what an amazing world this place can be and all the vastness and fascinating bits about the universe. I live in awe of the world every day without any sort of God motivating me. Again, I just really don't get the fundamental concept behind religions when you have science and reason, which don't cancel out any of the artistic expressions of the human race or fascination in the world (actually I think scientific discoveries add to both of these things.) Anyone can name me something they think religion does good and I can say something non-religion does better. Humans don't need a god to make them do whatever amazing things they do, they can do it by themselves, and they clearly have considering they've gotten this far without a god, you know, existing.

 

This is an amazing post.

That