November 22, 200916 yr That's not true! Christmas was always celebrated, but instead it was the festival of the rebirth of the sun. But Jesus represents the compassionate model of humanity to such a good extent - perhaps idealized and embellished, but I like Jesus. Santa is Old Saint Nick, and evolved out of stories and creative thinking from older traditions. Santa represents the generosity, love, and joy dads have for their children without a doubt, but it's interesting how Santa came to be in popular myth. Simple happiness - it's a time honoring the essence of what it means to be human. But hey, first comes Thanksgiving!:P (gobble gobble).
November 22, 200916 yr Quote: Originally Posted by noonsun;3725656 All you said about the rarity and incredible occurrence of life is utterly true, chuck, I just utterly don't understand why anyone (not talking about you) want to add any sort of God or "spiritual entity" into the mix, it takes all of the wonder and beauty out of the whole system. Go outside some night and look at the stars when it's cold outside and think about all the things science has basically proved about them -- they're unimaginably huge and far away, each one of them is unique, and humans have managed by sheer luck and chance to build up a consciousness out of the natural world and can observe such things, that can notice patterns in them, that can express themselves with such clarity to others, through language, art, music, acting, what have you, and simultaneously categorize virtually everything that we can observe into reasonable laws based on logic that are also actually true -- to think that anybody would rather live believing that all of the undeniable beauty in the universe and that human existence is capable of is because of or relies on some divine man sitting in the clouds is just horrible to me. Religion does not add wonder to the world, it makes it duller and more uninteresting; it's technically got the same basis as science, which is explaining the world, except with religion you just make shit up and believe it to make yourself feel better; with science you learn about the actual world. Not really a contest if you ask me. I'd rather be able to know facts (or almost facts) about this existence than any sort of made up shit about someone else's rules and an afterlife once you die, especially considering most of humanities gods are just shit people anyway, vindictive, mean, bitchy, etc. And don't give me any of that crap about how religion fosters spiritual growth and personal happiness, that's bullshit, I'm not a religious person but I would say I am fairly spiritual, since I can appreciate what an amazing world this place can be and all the vastness and fascinating bits about the universe. I live in awe of the world every day without any sort of God motivating me. Again, I just really don't get the fundamental concept behind religions when you have science and reason, which don't cancel out any of the artistic expressions of the human race or fascination in the world (actually I think scientific discoveries add to both of these things.) Anyone can name me something they think religion does good and I can say something non-religion does better. Humans don't need a god to make them do whatever amazing things they do, they can do it by themselves, and they clearly have considering they've gotten this far without a god, you know, existing. what does wonder have to do with facts though? Whether adding or subtracting a God makes the world more beautiful or interesting is completely irrelevant to discerning truth. You're spiritualizing atheism in an ironically religious way.
November 22, 200916 yr All you said about the rarity and incredible occurrence of life is utterly true, chuck, I just utterly don't understand why anyone (not talking about you) want to add any sort of God or "spiritual entity" into the mix, it takes all of the wonder and beauty out of the whole system. Go outside some night and look at the stars when it's cold outside and think about all the things science has basically proved about them -- they're unimaginably huge and far away, each one of them is unique, and humans have managed by sheer luck and chance to build up a consciousness out of the natural world and can observe such things, that can notice patterns in them, that can express themselves with such clarity to others, through language, art, music, acting, what have you, and simultaneously categorize virtually everything that we can observe into reasonable laws based on logic that are also actually true -- to think that anybody would rather live believing that all of the undeniable beauty in the universe and that human existence is capable of is because of or relies on some divine man sitting in the clouds is just horrible to me. Religion does not add wonder to the world, it makes it duller and more uninteresting; it's technically got the same basis as science, which is explaining the world, except with religion you just make shit up and believe it to make yourself feel better; with science you learn about the actual world. Not really a contest if you ask me. I'd rather be able to know facts (or almost facts) about this existence than any sort of made up shit about someone else's rules and an afterlife once you die, especially considering most of humanities gods are just shit people anyway, vindictive, mean, bitchy, etc. And don't give me any of that crap about how religion fosters spiritual growth and personal happiness, that's bullshit, I'm not a religious person but I would say I am fairly spiritual, since I can appreciate what an amazing world this place can be and all the vastness and fascinating bits about the universe. I live in awe of the world every day without any sort of God motivating me. Again, I just really don't get the fundamental concept behind religions when you have science and reason, which don't cancel out any of the artistic expressions of the human race or fascination in the world (actually I think scientific discoveries add to both of these things.) Anyone can name me something they think religion does good and I can say something non-religion does better. Humans don't need a god to make them do whatever amazing things they do, they can do it by themselves, and they clearly have considering they've gotten this far without a god, you know, existing. It's culture. You live in USA, I live in the UK. Both countries have laws implemented that were traditionally built upon the rights and wrongs of what Christianity has taught us as we both live in Christian countries. It'd be totally ignorant to completely dismiss the impact of religion in our cultures. We are surrounded by Christian influence, likewise Islamic influences in Muslim states and such.
November 22, 200916 yr Quote: Originally Posted by noonsun;3725656 All you said about the rarity and incredible occurrence of life is utterly true, chuck, I just utterly don't understand why anyone (not talking about you) want to add any sort of God or "spiritual entity" into the mix, it takes all of the wonder and beauty out of the whole system. Go outside some night and look at the stars when it's cold outside and think about all the things science has basically proved about them -- they're unimaginably huge and far away, each one of them is unique, and humans have managed by sheer luck and chance to build up a consciousness out of the natural world and can observe such things, that can notice patterns in them, that can express themselves with such clarity to others, through language, art, music, acting, what have you, and simultaneously categorize virtually everything that we can observe into reasonable laws based on logic that are also actually true -- to think that anybody would rather live believing that all of the undeniable beauty in the universe and that human existence is capable of is because of or relies on some divine man sitting in the clouds is just horrible to me. Religion does not add wonder to the world, it makes it duller and more uninteresting; it's technically got the same basis as science, which is explaining the world, except with religion you just make shit up and believe it to make yourself feel better; with science you learn about the actual world. Not really a contest if you ask me. I'd rather be able to know facts (or almost facts) about this existence than any sort of made up shit about someone else's rules and an afterlife once you die, especially considering most of humanities gods are just shit people anyway, vindictive, mean, bitchy, etc. And don't give me any of that crap about how religion fosters spiritual growth and personal happiness, that's bullshit, I'm not a religious person but I would say I am fairly spiritual, since I can appreciate what an amazing world this place can be and all the vastness and fascinating bits about the universe. I live in awe of the world every day without any sort of God motivating me. Again, I just really don't get the fundamental concept behind religions when you have science and reason, which don't cancel out any of the artistic expressions of the human race or fascination in the world (actually I think scientific discoveries add to both of these things.) Anyone can name me something they think religion does good and I can say something non-religion does better. Humans don't need a god to make them do whatever amazing things they do, they can do it by themselves, and they clearly have considering they've gotten this far without a god, you know, existing. what does wonder have to do with facts though? Whether adding or subtracting a God makes the world more beautiful or interesting is completely irrelevant to discerning truth. You're spiritualizing atheism in an ironically religious way. Step 1 of the scientific method is observation. Without curiosity and interest, there is no step 1. But don't we all have that AHA moment, that moment of amazement and fascination with the natural world? Probability is interesting here - it suggests that this is an incredibly low probability event; just that realization should make us all pause for a moment, and consider just how amazing it all is. I tried adding or subtracting a God, and I found that when I change how I perceived God, then one cannot add or subtract the Universe. God=Universe is how I sees it.;) But in the discourse of human social and cultural evolution, religion has always played a role, and affected how we achieve a mindstate capable of discerning how the universe works. We may be discerning truth, but the cultural forces that got us to this point bear some relevance in the conditions necessary to proceed with scientific discovery. I am not spiritualizing atheism, I am considering broader matters - matters of social interactions between us, that leads to the ultimate decipher of the cipher that is the Universe in which we live. (I keep thinking about the Monty Python movie, where in the end they're learning that the Earth was created as the ultimate computer to find the question for the ultimate answer:laugh3:. They may have beaten us to the punch line.:P) Perhaps we cannot contemplate it all individually, so I am considering our collective weltanschauung.;)
November 22, 200916 yr People often misunderstand the metaphores in the Bible Metaphor: n. [<Gr. meta, over + pherein, to bear] a figure of speech in which one thing is spoken of as if it were another (Ex: "All the world's a stage"). Well, perhaps this is the case in some instances, Ricardo. So, are you saying that if people are acting on a passage, if they misinterpret it, even though they may be thinking they are doing God's will, are actually not? Who's to say what the correct meaning of a given passage is then?
November 22, 200916 yr what does wonder have to do with facts though?I just said what wonder has to do with facts, I think facts increase wonder at the world because they widen our perspective and raise ever more questions (which we can probably never hope to answer, though we try anyway.) Whether adding or subtracting a God makes the world more beautiful or interesting is completely irrelevant to discerning truth. You're spiritualizing atheism in an ironically religious way. I'm expressing my personal opinion which is that the world is more interesting to me without a spiritual God in the mix, I'm not trying to spiritualize atheism itself at all. I'm just telling people to look out at the world and appreciate it without thinking any theology motivating them -- it's quite possible, I do it every day. I don't see how I religion-fied what I said anyway, my whole argument was the world is awesome without religion in the mix.
November 22, 200916 yr It's culture. You live in USA, I live in the UK. Both countries have laws implemented that were traditionally built upon the rights and wrongs of what Christianity has taught us as we both live in Christian countries. It'd be totally ignorant to completely dismiss the impact of religion in our cultures. We are surrounded by Christian influence, likewise Islamic influences in Muslim states and such. Yeah it sure fucking would, good thing I didn't do anything resembling that huh :thumbsup:
November 22, 200916 yr If I understand what the biblical scholars are saying, the bible is the codification and retelling, in written form, of the social and ethical norms of the day (of the day when written, that is to say). The basis for our laws are ethical arguments, but they represent what is accepted as ethical and fair in society in general - having them explained in the bible does not mean that the bible was the source-code for our laws, but reading and interpreting the bible did have an affect on those laws. Social evolution reaches a point where what is understood to be fair is then put down on paper, and that becomes the law of the land.
November 23, 200916 yr Metaphor: n. [<Gr. meta, over + pherein, to bear] a figure of speech in which one thing is spoken of as if it were another (Ex: "All the world's a stage"). Well, perhaps this is the case in some instances, Ricardo. So, are you saying that if people are acting on a passage, if they misinterpret it, even though they may be thinking they are doing God's will, are actually not? Who's to say what the correct meaning of a given passage is then? That's true, everyone interprets passage in a different way, so why does the catholic church impose their own interpetation? I might be wrong about the interpretation, but so might them.
November 23, 200916 yr I just said what wonder has to do with facts, I think facts increase wonder at the world because they widen our perspective and raise ever more questions (which we can probably never hope to answer, though we try anyway.) I'm expressing my personal opinion which is that the world is more interesting to me without a spiritual God in the mix, I'm not trying to spiritualize atheism itself at all. I'm just telling people to look out at the world and appreciate it without thinking any theology motivating them -- it's quite possible, I do it every day. I don't see how I religion-fied what I said anyway, my whole argument was the world is awesome without religion in the mix. Funny thing Sara, is that a lot of people after pondering about the matters of life can't but affirm the existence of something superior. That's just my opinion, though.
November 23, 200916 yr I think lots of you guys and girls take the Bible to fundementally. I'll agree, their is a lot of stuff in the old testament I don't understand but ou have to think about the context in which it is written as well. Think about the people thousands of years ago who wrote it and how they would've seen the world and the different conventions they use. I posted this on page 6. People often misunderstand the metaphores in the Bible
November 23, 200916 yr Perhaps it's situational to the context of the times when it was written, but I still think there's an awful lot of awful things in the older texts. Too much severity, in my mind. It somewhat sounds like tribal rulers who were trying to beat their tribal members into cowering submission using the fear of God's wrath as a means to do so. Step out of line, and God zaps you with a thunderbolt, and you're just a crispy piece of toast sitting there in the desert. I much prefer the newer texts to the old - the new ones seem a lot more compassionate and life-affirming to me.
November 23, 200916 yr well christmas began as and essentially is a pagan holiday. Its only later that Christianity sort of covered it up by projecting the nativity onto it.
November 23, 200916 yr That's true, everyone interprets passage in a different way, so why does the catholic church impose their own interpetation? I might be wrong about the interpretation, but so might them. Ricardo, I think it has to do with how Christianity spread, and how as it spread, it began to have more authors. If there was an original text, it's been lost - so either it was passed on by oral tradition, or the text simply vanished in time. Then, once the accepted Gospels were penned, they were done so in Hebrew, then Aramaic, then Greek, then on to the next language and so forth. Nothing translates perfectly, so there was room for both deciding how to portray a given passage, or simply translation errors occurred. After Christianity became the main religion of the Roman world, the church hierarchy began a process of trying to bring greater unity to the interpretations in the Gospels, as well as limit the number of Gospels to only the 4 most common ones. Hence, the beginning of setting standards as to what is to be believed from each passage, how it is to be interpreted, what gets included, etc. by church authorities - and since the Catholic church was for the most part the original church, the structures thus created to interpret and set standards exist to this day. I might have gotten that a bit muddled, but generally I think that's why. As for interpretation, I think the best would be to either learn ancient Hebrew and Aramaic, and go back to the original documents (a daunting task), or listen to some biblical scholars, and get their opinions on interpreting biblical passages. Some things vary, and it might we worth the time to do so.
November 23, 200916 yr @Tnspieler1012 oh really? how so.. i'm curious to know, cuz i always thought christmas (Old English Crīstes mæsse - Mass of Christ) started with the birth of christ.. no sarcasm btw, i really want to know.
November 23, 200916 yr I'm aware of the breakdown, and was actually a bit forward in saying that (i.e. wrong). I was thinking more in terms of traditions like the christmas tree and the false notion that jesus was born on a snowy december with the magi arriving at the same day, as depicted in nativity scenes. my bad.
November 23, 200916 yr Actually, I learned that it was a pagan holiday celebrating the birth or return of the sun, and then the Christians came and made it into their own holiday...
November 23, 200916 yr oh i see. yeah, i just think that that whole idea is completely wrong too, the snow etc.. but i think all that was added to it just so the holiday could be more interesting to pegans i think.. i don't think anybody really know the exact date of his real birth.
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