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Norwegian Government Bombing and Shooting (77 Dead)


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^ and ^^ I do not envy his lawyer.

 

It must be a very tough job to defend this man whose actions cannot be excused - his client is already convicted in the public - and he might receive threats. It cannot be easy being his family.

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I think the goverment protects its people right, the problem I think is that no-one ever expected this to happen in the country ranked N°1 by the Human Development Index, with only 3.6% of unemployement and a Per capita income of more than 85 thousand dollars... Not under big international threats.

 

Obviously the police could have acted more efficiently, but things like this are definitely hard to predict/avoid. It seems like he acted alone all the way, not as part of an organization that could have been tracked easier before anything of this could happen.

 

 

 

^

yep.

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Dear Saffire, I think you are obsessed with the idea that governments are per se the main reason for all the bad in the world. OBSESSED.

This island's waters are very narrow and difficult to ship, that's what I read. It's just really crazy to think that the police didn't try to get there as soon as possible. Really, you're trapped in absurd conspiracies, it's sometimes very sickening and even crazy.

 

I studied the austrian school, I understand that their theories aren't bad at all. So your obsession is not on basis of something deeply disturbing, but an attempt to spread liberalism in a certain way. Good. But you are taking it too far, imo.

 

But please back to the actual topic. Just needed to get that off my chest.

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It took the police 90 minutes to respond. The question is: why are Norwegians paying such high taxes for such half-assed government protection?

 

But you won't see this question posed in the media. Now's the time to rally around the government. We need more laws!

 

http://news.yahoo.com/norway-police-arrive-90-minutes-firing-began-205033309.html

 

Well, a lot of them were tied down in Oslo after the bombing. Why they didn't fly by helicopter out to Utøya is puzzling, though, cause the media were there pretty quickly.

 

There were one or two police at Utøya, at least one was killed. Not sure if they were armed.

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Dear Saffire, I think you are obsessed with the idea that governments are per se the main reason for all the bad in the world. OBSESSED.

This island's waters are very narrow and difficult to ship, that's what I read. It's just really crazy to think that the police didn't try to get there as soon as possible. Really, you're trapped in absurd conspiracies, it's sometimes very sickening and even crazy.

 

I studied the austrian school, I understand that their theories aren't bad at all. So your obsession is not on basis of something deeply disturbing, but an attempt to spread liberalism in a certain way. Good. But you are taking it too far, imo.

 

But please back to the actual topic. Just needed to get that off my chest.

 

Are there not enough posts here espousing condolences and emotional wailing for you? Sorry I didn't contribute my own.

 

Do you think those kids who got shot on that island were sitting there thinking about this emoticon as they were bleeding out: :hug:

 

Or were they FURIOUS at their government (the very thing they were worshiping at the camp - the Labor Party)? WHY aren't the police here? HOW did this man get a gun, when I'm not allowed to have one to DEFEND myself?

 

43.6% of the GDP for THIS?

 

Oops! I paid 168 billion dollars and my pizza arrived 90 minutes late.

 

No, they'll get some nice speeches. They'll get the hugging emoticons, and we'll all talk about what an evil guy this was. And anyone who dares discuss the complete failure of the government to protect its own people and prevent guns getting in the hands of crazy people - well they're just conspiracy theorists.

 

Conclusion:

 

I hold governments to high standards, because governments make big claims and cost a TON of money.

 

"Oh, Saffire! It's only money!" Yes, but money is time. Labor. The more you pay in taxes, the less time you get to spend doing what you enjoy - painting, writing, exercising, playing with your children, etc.

 

I hope other people would do the same. Sadly, most people have this "rally around the flag" mentality, especially after massive government failures.

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Well, a lot of them were tied down in Oslo after the bombing. Why they didn't fly by helicopter out to Utøya is puzzling, though, cause the media were there pretty quickly.

 

There were one or two police at Utøya, at least one was killed. Not sure if they were armed.

press here said there were 2 police there in the island but as they aren't armed they needed the special forces to arrive there and those needed 40 mins to arrive there, cause all police went to Oslo to help after the bomb.

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http://gunkies.org/blog/?p=91

 

Firsthand account of the shootings, from someone on the island.

 

In spite of protests from the group who knew him, one kid was put in handcuffs. At the time I didn’t understand why, and the policeman seemed to say something almost to the effect that there was no reason for it at all. I didn’t see when they undid his cuffs, but I remember thinking that this treatment made a terrible experience even worse for him.

 

facepalm_picard2.jpg

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Do you think those kids who got shot on that island were sitting there thinking about this emoticon as they were bleeding out: :hug:

 

Or were they FURIOUS at their government (the very thing they were worshiping at the camp - the Labor Party)? WHY aren't the police here? HOW did this man get a gun, when I'm not allowed to have one to DEFEND myself?

 

Not to butt in, but I'm pretty sure when someone is rampaging around shooting at you, the last thing on your mind is "Hm, how did my government mess up and how can I blame them?"

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http://gunkies.org/blog/?p=91

 

Firsthand account of the shootings, from someone on the island.

 

 

 

facepalm_picard2.jpg

 

...I tried my best to comfort him but knew it would be little help. Later, when things stabilised a little, we were told that he was handcuffed because he had come from an unsecured area. The police was extremely good at carefully explaining what was happening and why; this was a big help and I am grateful for it.

 

And I honestly don't think that the thoughts of those who were at Utøya were of hate towards the government. Or that the answer is to make it easier to bear arms. Or that the government is to blame.

 

That being said, the police should have coordinated with the media for use of choppers to get there quicker. The entire process did take too long.

 

The death toll has been lowered by 18 at Utøya, and risen by one in the bombing, but it's still expected to rise.

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And I honestly don't think that the thoughts of those who were at Utøya were of hate towards the government. Or that the answer is to make it easier to bear arms. Or that the government is to blame.

 

Well that's nice that you think that, but it's not a logical thought pattern. In fact it's very strange.

 

How can the government compensate the families of the dead for their failure to protect them?

Maybe they won't have to pay income tax next year! Such a small concession by the government would be greatly appreciated by those mourning the deaths of their children.

 

Somehow I doubt it will even be offered, though.

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Do you think those kids who got shot on that island were sitting there thinking about this emoticon as they were bleeding out: :hug:

 

Or were they FURIOUS at their government (the very thing they were worshiping at the camp - the Labor Party)? WHY aren't the police here? HOW did this man get a gun, when I'm not allowed to have one to DEFEND myself?

OK, I usually keep myself away from these kinds of forum discussions, but this is nonsense, disrespectful but most of all pretty stupid. And that is all that can be said about this quote.

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From TV2 News and Danish and Swedish text-TV:

 

POLICE BOAT HAD ENGINE FAILURE DELAYING ARRIVAL OF POLICE / DELTA FORCES BY 10 MINUTES

 

The boat that was to transport the heavily armed Delta forces to the island to help the young people there had an engine failure. The police soon found other boats to get them to the island. So the news agency NTB has reported.

 

ANDERS BEHRING BREIVIK used special bullets that cause maximum damage to the body. Therefore the injured had terrible and complicated wounds.

 

Breivik had planned to carry out the massacre some hours earlier when the former Prime Minister and Director General of the World Health Organization, WHO Gro Harlem Brundtland was on the island to deliver a speech (at 11am). She stayed in the island for several hours, but had left the island before Breivik arrived. He was delayed.

 

 

There was a 51-year-old unarmed policeman on the island - he volunteered each year. His 10-year-old son was there as well, but he survived. But the policeman died as one of the first victims as did the woman organizing the annual youth camp. She was on the ferry that transported Breivik to the island. Those onboard the ferry talked about the OSLO bomb. The organizer felt that something was wrong with Breivik who wore police uniform and having arrived in the island she went to the central building - probably to sound the alarm. Breivik suspected that the organizer felt that he was not policeman and shot her. Then he found and killed the unarmed policeman. The dead policeman is the stepbrother of the Norwegian crown princess Mette-Marit.

 

 

One of the young survivors said that he saw an 11-year-old boy whose father had just been killed by Breivik - the boy said: "Don't shoot me. Have you not killed enough already including shooting my dad? I am too young to die". That stopped Breivik from killing that boy.

 

 

Breivik was before court - the public was not allowed to witness what Breivik said - at the request of the Prosecution.

 

Breivik had 2 wishes:

 

1) To be allowed to wear police uniform in court

2) That the public could hear his motives for this action

 

A public hearing would give him a platform to spread his views on the Norwegian society and state. The Norwegian police feared that Breivik would be lynched if the public was allowed to witness what he had to say. The police also wanted to make it impossible for Breivik to send coded messages to any accomplices or to people thinking that he is a hero.

 

What Breivik said:

 

Breivik would damage the Social Democratic Party as much as possible and make it difficult for the party to recruit new members and future politicians. He felt that the Social Democratic Party had deceived Norway and the Norwegian people. "And yesterday the party paid for its treason", he said.

 

Breivik bought the chemicals online from a Polish company. It was reported that a Polish man had been arrested by Polish police. But the Polish police has said that the owners of the company selling chemicals to Breivik had been questioned. The relationship between the company and Breivik was just commercial - the sale of the chemicals was legal - the chemicals had not been vital in making the very powerful bomb.

 

He bought his police uniform - or rather parts of it - in Prague / Praha in the Czech Republic.

 

Breivik said that he would SAVE NORWAY AND WEST EUROPE FROM ISLAM AND CULTURAL MARXISM. He would send a powerful signal to the Norwegian population.

 

 

 

BREIVIK IS TO REMAIN IN CUSTODY FOR 8 WEEKS - NO VISITORS ALLOWED - AND 4 OF THE WEEKS WILL BE IN ISOLATION.

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Well that's nice that you think that, but it's not a logical thought pattern. In fact it's very strange.

 

How can the government compensate the families of the dead for their failure to protect them?

Maybe they won't have to pay income tax next year! Such a small concession by the government would be greatly appreciated by those mourning the deaths of their children.

 

Somehow I doubt it will even be offered, though.

 

So he has a different opinion than you, so his thought pattern is strange? Interesting.

 

And I think it would disrespectful for the government to give money as "compensation" for the death of a person. That's like saying you can put a price to them, and besides, as Nancy just pointed out in a post the boat had engine failure. Not exactly a government conspiracy.

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Well that's nice that you think that, but it's not a logical thought pattern. In fact it's very strange.

 

How can the government compensate the families of the dead for their failure to protect them?

Maybe they won't have to pay income tax next year! Such a small concession by the government would be greatly appreciated by those mourning the deaths of their children.

 

Somehow I doubt it will even be offered, though.

 

Well, no not really. I don't think it's strange to think that right to bear arms would make the country more dangerous. Normal people don't carry guns to protect themselves. Guns are weapons. Would you bring a gun say to the office, to defend yourself? Or in every day living?

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So he has a different opinion than you, so his thought pattern is strange? Interesting.

 

Well let's see if I can get this straight:

 

1. The purpose of a government (police) is to protect us.

 

2. Without this protection, there would be insane killers and thieves, and society would break down.

 

3. In order to pay for this service, we must take 40+% of your income every single year (in Norway).

 

4. When an insane killer takes 80 lives, it is disrespectful and conspiratorial to place any responsibility at the feet of the aforementioned government/police.

 

 

And I think it would disrespectful for the government to give money as "compensation" for the death of a person.

 

You're right. They should get NOTHING.

 

In fact, they should be happy the government doesn't lock them up!

 

"Please sir, may I have some more?"

 

more.jpg

 

 

Well, no not really. Giving everyone a gun increases the risk that some idiot will try something similar. It makes it more dangerous rather than less.

 

Do you have empirical evidence that high gun ownership correlates with a higher homicide rate?

 

Because I have evidence to the contrary.

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14280210

 

25 July 2011 Last updated at 17:27 GMT

 

Norway gunman 'has accomplices'

 

Norwegian police are investigating claims by Anders Behring Breivik, who has admitted carrying out Friday's twin attacks in Norway, that he has "two more cells" working with him.

 

Mr Breivik made the claim at his first court hearing since the bombing in Oslo and massacre at an island youth camp.

 

Police have now revised down the island killings from 86 to 68 but increased the bomb death toll by one to eight.

 

At least 100,000 people have gathered in Oslo for a vigil for the victims.

 

Earlier on Monday, a minute's silence was held across the country.

 

Closed doors

 

Mr Breivik was remanded in custody for eight weeks.

 

Oslo police asked for Mr Breivik to be held in full isolation for the first four weeks.

 

Judge Kim Heger agreed, saying Mr Breivik could not receive letters or have visitors except for his lawyer.

 

Judge Heger said police must be able to proceed with the investigation into Mr Breivik's claims without the accused being able to interfere.

 

Mr Breivik had earlier said he had acted alone.

 

Prosecutor Christian Hatlo said police could not rule out that someone else was involved and confirmed an investigation was underway into Mr Breivik's claims that he had worked in a cell, or group, and that there were two other cells.

 

Mr Breivik has been charged under the criminal law for acts of terrorism. The charges include the destabilisation of vital functions of society, including government, and causing serious fear in the population.

 

The judge said that Mr Breivik had admitted carrying out the attacks but had not pleaded guilty to the charges.

 

Mr Hatlo said the accused was very calm at the hearing, appeared "unaffected" by the events, and was willing to explain his motives. He said Mr Breivik was allowed to do this to a certain extent by the judge, but when he started reading from his manifesto he was stopped.

 

Mr Hatlo also said that Mr Breivik expected to spend the rest of his life behind bars.

 

Norway's maximum prison sentence is 21 years, although those who continue to pose a danger to society can be detained longer.

 

 

 

Two psychiatrists have been assigned to assess Mr Breivik's mental health.

 

Judge Heger had earlier ruled that the hearing should be held behind closed doors amid security concerns and fears that Mr Breivik would use it to deliver a speech seeking to justify his actions.

 

Instead Judge Heger summarised Mr Breivik's words in his post-hearing statement.

 

The judge said Mr Breivik had argued that he was acting to save Norway and Europe from "Marxist and Muslim colonisation".

 

The gunman had said his operation was not aimed at killing as many people as possible but that he wanted to create the greatest loss possible to Norway's governing Labour Party, which he accused of failing the country on immigration.

 

The bomb in Oslo targeted buildings connected to the Labour Party government, and the youth camp on Utoeya island was also run by the party.

 

In addition to those killed, at least 96 people were injured in the attacks.

 

 

Police officials defend their response

 

Police on Monday revised down the number killed on Utoeya, citing difficulties in gathering information in the wake of the shootings.

 

But they said there was still no exact picture of how many died in the Oslo bombing.

 

Political postponement

 

Separately, Norway's Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg, in his first interview with a British broadcaster, told the BBC's Jon Sopel that the attacks would change his country but that it would "still be open and democratic".

 

Mr Stoltenberg said he knew many of those who had died and now was the time to look after the wounded and the families that had lost loved ones.

 

He said he believed no country could ever fully protect itself from attacks such as these.

 

He also thanked the international community for its response.

 

Earlier at 1200 local time (1000 GMT), Mr Stoltenberg, at Oslo University, declared one minute's silence in remembrance of the victims.

 

Thousands of people stood around a carpet of flowers at Oslo cathedral.

 

One Oslo citizen, Sven-Erik Fredheim, told Reuters: "It is important to have this minute of silence so that all the victims and the parents of the families know that people are thinking about them."

 

In addition to Monday's Oslo vigil, gatherings are taking place in other towns and cities across Norway.

 

Meanwhile, Norway has postponed the start of party political campaigns ahead of the 12 September election, the Aftenposten newspaper reports.

 

The campaigning is now set to start during the second half of August.

 

 

Island shooting suspect

 

Describes himself as a Christian and conservative on Facebook page attributed to him

 

Grew up in Oslo and attended Oslo School of Management

 

Set up farm through which he was able to buy fertiliser, which may have been used to make a bomb

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Well, no not really. I don't think it's strange to think that right to bear arms would make the country more dangerous. Normal people don't carry guns to protect themselves. Guns are weapons. Would you bring a gun say to the office, to defend yourself? Or in every day living?

 

So you're assuming that with more gun control, this lunatic would never have been able to get a gun? :confused:

 

People who support strict gun regulations forget the fact that if someone wants a gun to kill people, he/she can find one, whether it's legal to own one or not. Gun control laws simply prevent good people from owning guns for self-defense.

 

If you were a crazy psycho killer, would you rather attack a group of unarmed citizens, or a group of armed citizens?

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I don't believe this guy's claim that there are two more cells working with him.

 

He's trying to start a political movement in Norway, and in order to do that he will claim to have more support than he actually does.

 

Plus, if there really were two more cells planning another attack, why would he alert the police to this fact? He's an idiot.

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So you're assuming that with more gun control, this lunatic would never have been able to get a gun? :confused:

 

People who support strict gun regulations forget the fact that if someone wants a gun to kill people, he/she can find one, whether it's legal to own one or not. Gun control laws simply prevent good people from owning guns for self-defense.

 

If you were a crazy psycho killer, would you rather attack a group of unarmed citizens, or a group of armed citizens?

 

No, I just don't want the gun laws to change in Norway after this incident, I'm not rallying for gun control.

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Latest news:

 

PST, The Norwegian Police Security Intelligence Service confirms to Norwegian TV broadcaster NRK that it knew of Breivik before the massacre on the island Utoya and in Oslo. Breivik figured on a list of Norwegians who had bought products in a Polish shop online - a shop selling i.a. chemicals. PST investigated Breivik, but found no reason to do more.

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