I have a problem (and answers to questions about having a neutral gender)

[MaxRide]

So I just put two and two together and realized the other day I'm the same thing we should be friends

(Not that we weren't already, but we don't talk much, and now I have someone to talk to other than my boyfriend who doesn't seem to be able to get it haha)

 

And yeah, reading through all the posts in this thread, it's not inherently a concern or something to really care about at all about to identify as agender, but it becomes so when it's accompanied by the dysphoria (which I think is the difference between agender and neutrois?)

 

And I don't really think it's related at all to gender roles (Though I obviously can't speak for anyone other than myself), but other internalized gender stereotypes probably play a large role in it considering the desire to be absent of any "characteristic" gender traits, so it's really confusing to think about in theory. Either way though, it's a legitimate thing and there's still another aspect of it that can't really be explained but is separate from social constructs and that's I think the biggest part.

Oh hi Crestammi :heart:

 

From what I've read, you're right about the difference between identifying as agender and neutrois, although agender seems to me to be more of a lack of a gender [or a lack of caring about it], rather than having a neutral gender and not having dysphoria. I really have no idea, and I'm half asleep at the moment, so I'm not really the best person to ask. :freak: I mean, I have a mild amount of dysphoria, so I use neutrois [and the fact that neutrois seems to refer to a neutral gender rather than a lack of one], but use whatever you feel is appropriate for you.

 

..not to mention the fact that gender roles are completely separate from gender identification.

 

humans, always being so confusing

[Brent]

It's another one of Brent's endless things :lol: (Apologies if Brent didn't think it up)

 

I did

 

luv u

 

:huh2:

[Coldplay]

Hey, :huh2: is mine

 

the rest of you peasants can use :huh:

[Reilly]

..not to mention the fact that gender roles are completely separate from gender identification.

 

I'm also half asleep and don't get this so I may be taking it too literally, you acknowledge there are gender roles? Or is it other people's perception of gender roles?

 

I did

 

luv u

 

:huh2:

 

At least we'll always have :huh2:

 

:huh:

[Brent]

:huh: :huh2: :huh3:

[Brent]

haha :huh3: is not a thing

 

:huh:

[MaxRide]

I'm also half asleep and don't get this so I may be taking it too literally, you acknowledge there are gender roles? Or is it other people's perception of gender roles?

Well, from what I can tell, it's sort of a combination of both, but it seems to be mostly an "internal" thing. I mean, there are "femme"/feminine people who are female to male transgendered (and vice versa - "butch"/masculine people who are male to female transgendered; and, of course, the genderfluid people in between).

 

For me, I don't really have a gender role (I don't want to be "involved," for a lack of a better way to put it, in that type of thing), but the majority of people around me who don't know me that well automatically assume that I fit a feminine gender identity and gender role. That would be the "perception" type, I guess.

 

...but I really don't know, to be perfectly honest.

 

gender is a ball of wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff

[Cobalt]

I don't get that explanation

 

So there are gender roles, but there also aren't gender roles, and if they do exist they don't apply to you, but they might exist in a form of an idea everyone else has, but then you say you don't really know.

 

Ay ay ay! :dizzy2:

[MaxRide]

Basically, gender roles exist, but I don't like the fact that they exist, and if they didn't have to apply to anyone, that would be awesome

 

EVERYTHING IS CONFUSING

:bigcry:

 

EDIT:

Gender roles are cultural and personal. They determine how males and females should think, speak, dress, and interact within the context of society. Learning plays a role in this process of shaping gender roles. These gender schemas are deeply embedded cognitive frameworks regarding what defines masculine and feminine. While various socializing agents—parents, teachers, peers, movies, television, music, books, and religion—teach and reinforce gender roles throughout the lifespan, parents probably exert the greatest influence, especially on their very young offspring.

 

thank you cliff notes sociology

 

So, yes, gender roles exist in that other people perceive they exist.

[Reilly]

Well that didn't really answer my question at all. But it did get us a step further.

 

You acknowledge there are gender roles in terms of a person identifying their gender, but the whole point of making this effort to be genderqueer is because of your hatred of gender roles? Yes that is mighty confusing indeed, it makes you wonder why you'd bother worrying about it in the first place.

[MaxRide]

Well, I dislike gender roles, but that's for a completely reason than being neutral gendered (the whole "boys are supposed to be strong and not cry" thing, [if it is a thing...] for example, really bothers me).

 

To put it in the most simple terms that I can, gender identity is how someone feels internally, and gender roles [/gender presentation..but that's a bit beyond the point I'm trying to make] is how someone shows themselves on the outside - how they dress, act, and/or behave [in terms of what is seen as "masculine" or "feminine" in society]. In terms of applying it to me, I feel neutral-gendered, and I am trying to show that by dressing/acting/behaving as neutrally as possible.

 

I have to go to my piano lesson now, but I will try to make this more clear when I come back~

[Reilly]

To put it in the most simple terms that I can, gender identity is how someone feels internally, and gender roles [/gender presentation..but that's a bit beyond the point I'm trying to make] is how someone shows themselves on the outside - how they dress, act, and/or behave [in terms of what is seen as "masculine" or "feminine" in society].

 

That throws the whole topic out of sorts, gender roles should be insignificant, isn't that the point? This logic means that a woman can put on a fancy dress, wear her pearl ear-rings however should demand people define her as 'they'.

[Violet]

That throws the whole topic out of sorts, gender roles should be insignificant, isn't that the point?

 

Yeah, that's my thought process, too. Maybe I'm a bit dense, but I don't see how the two should relate to each other at all. I'm biologically female, and I'm perfectly fine with that, but I don't go around acting really feminine. In turn, me dressing and acting as I do shouldn't automatically mean I'm a dyke.

 

Maybe I'm misconstruing the point altogether, but it doesn't make any sense to me.

[Crests]

 

This is what this thread makes me think of right now???

[MaxRide]

^ YES SO MUCH. :cheesy:

 

The problem is, for most people, gender roles are somewhat significant, if only to their perception of the world. Example: most people see men wearing dresses and/or skirts as "weird." (for whatever reason, very few people see women wearing "traditionally" masculine clothes the same way...double standard?)

 

I completely agree with the fact that gender roles should be completely insignificant, but the fact is that culture has made them be significant. That's why I'm using the word 'typically' - society, as a whole, creates "typical" and "atypical" [what a load of balderdash] behaviors.

 

This blog post by a mother with a son who likes wearing dresses(if anyone is curious, the blog is "Pink is for Boys") basically sums up my point of view on the whole topic: "He says he doesn’t want to be considered a boy who likes girl things, because he doesn’t think there should be “boy” things and “girl” things to begin with. There should just be things, and people should get to like what they want."

 

tldr; gender roles shouldn't matter but they do to society overall

 

(Believe me, I don't understand the entire issue completely myself)

[Violet]

But if you personally think gender roles are nonsense, why does it matter that you try to dress neutrally in order to reflect your neutrois gender identity?

[MaxRide]

But if you personally think gender roles are nonsense, why does it matter that you try to dress neutrally in order to reflect your neutrois gender identity?

To be honest, it's mostly because I absolutely hate the design/pattern/colors of most clothes that are "specifically made" for women. Clothes "specially made" for men don't generally annoy me as much, but the necklines are almost always too high for me - anything that touches my neck annoys me and makes me want to literally scratch my neck away. :|

 

I basically dress pretty casually when I'm not at school [where there is a dress code of a school polo and khakis for everyone], and casual, for me at least, means comfortably. And, for whatever reason, comfortable clothes tend to be more neutral. (actually, if I really want to think about it, I don't even own any clothing, aside from my "feminine cut" polos, that is gendered by retailers and stores)

 

Essentially, I dress neutrally because clothes that aren't neutral aren't physically comfortable for me to wear. (I'm using shoes as an example here, but this applies to any article of clothing) If I could find "female" shoes that were actually not physically digging into my feet, I wouldn't mind wearing them - and the same applies for "male" [dress] shoes.

 

tldr unisex clothes are physically more comfortable

[Reilly]

But if you personally think gender roles are nonsense, why does it matter that you try to dress neutrally in order to reflect your neutrois gender identity?

 

Thank you. I actually got sick of being ignored so decided not to ask again as I'm not getting a direct answer but instead spun some background information I don't really need.

[Empily]

I like to think I'm generally open minded to new ideas.... but I literally don't understand this at all :blank:

No matter how much description people go into, my mind cannot understand that way of thinking.

[MaxRide]

Thank you. I actually got sick of being ignored so decided not to ask again as I'm not getting a direct answer but instead spun some background information I don't really need.

I'm sorry if I wasn't/am not answering your question to begin with; I thought that you didn't understand the difference between gender roles and gender identity, which I was clearly wrong about.

 

(Emily (that's your name, right? :uhoh2:), I don't really think anyone really understands it; I'm just trying to use my experience as an example [i'm probably failing miserably at that, to be frank], and I don't really get the entire concept either)

[Violet]

To be honest, it's mostly because I absolutely hate the design/pattern/colors of most clothes that are "specifically made" for women. Clothes "specially made" for men don't generally annoy me as much, but the necklines are almost always too high for me - anything that touches my neck annoys me and makes me want to literally scratch my neck away. :|

 

I basically dress pretty casually when I'm not at school [where there is a dress code of a school polo and khakis for everyone], and casual, for me at least, means comfortably. And, for whatever reason, comfortable clothes tend to be more neutral. (actually, if I really want to think about it, I don't even own any clothing, aside from my "feminine cut" polos, that is gendered by retailers and stores)

 

Essentially, I dress neutrally because clothes that aren't neutral aren't physically comfortable for me to wear. (I'm using shoes as an example here, but this applies to any article of clothing) If I could find "female" shoes that were actually not physically digging into my feet, I wouldn't mind wearing them - and the same applies for "male" [dress] shoes.

 

tldr unisex clothes are physically more comfortable

 

So this isn't a matter of gender identity, so much as personal taste? Then why did you say that you try to dress neutrally in order to show your neutrality? I don't understand.

 

Also, you say you don't like assigning genders to things, yet you say things like "comfortable clothes tend to be more neutral," which is doing the exact same thing. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but this whole thing seems really contradictory to me.

[MaxRide]

So this isn't a matter of gender identity, so much as personal taste? Then why did you say that you try to dress neutrally in order to show your neutrality? I don't understand.

 

Also, you say you don't like assigning genders to things, yet you say things like "comfortable clothes tend to be more neutral," which is doing the exact same thing. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but this whole thing seems really contradictory to me.

For the most part, it is personal taste. But, as for the "gender identity" part of it, it's mostly for other people to get the idea that I'm not a "girly girl." *quietly laughs to self* Basically - and I know this sounds like I'm contradicting myself, but I can't really explain this type of thing very well, so bear with me - gender roles are stupid, but in order for the people who are closed-minded to not automatically say, "You wear girl clothes, so you're a girl," (if I was trying to tell them what my gender identity is...which I probably won't, but hey, one can never be too sure), I dress in a neutral way. Sure, I could wear "female clothes" and still explain to my close friends that I don't identify as a girl/woman, but honestly, I just don't feel like doing that, mostly because I've dressed in a way that is considered gender neutral for years anyway.

 

/I can't explain things to save my life

 

(breakdown: 95% = personal taste, 5% = to avoid having to talk to ignorant people not attempting to even understand gender identity)

 

Self-correction: by "neutral" clothing, I mean clothes that are not "specifically assigned" genders by society/a clothing store. If I'm contradicting myself again, please call me out on it.

[Violet]

...So you don't believe in gender roles, yet you dress neutrally in order to make a point to society that you don't fit in a gender because you don't want them to make the mistake that you're a girl because, despite the fact that gender roles don't matter to you, you care about what other people think about it, particularly these "close-minded people" that you refer to in your post. Right. That makes absolutely no sense to me.

[MaxRide]

...So you don't believe in gender roles, yet you dress neutrally in order to make a point to society that you don't fit in a gender because you don't want them to make the mistake that you're a girl because, despite the fact that gender roles don't matter to you, you care about what other people think about it, particularly these "close-minded people" that you refer to in your post. Right. That makes absolutely no sense to me.

Well, I care in the sense that I don't want other people to care so much about gender roles.

 

/that definitely made no sense at all, but I don't even know what I'm trying to say any more, so feel free to call me a complete idiot

 

As I said, though, it's almost entirely my personal taste.

(and now I have to leave and get ready for bed :escaping:)

[Crests]

I just know I'd feel a lot more comfortable with myself the more androgynous I appeared, so the common concept of what characteristics constitute certain genders obviously plays a significant role considering I have an idea of what that is. The basis of it isn't really manufactured ideas though, but they attach themselves to the whole underlying thing as a certain means of okay I can't really explain this nevermind